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celestial5gen
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celestial5gen
1990 Blue Metallic Pearl Toyota Celica GT
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1990 Toyota Celica GT

Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 3
New Jersey, NJ
Jan 14, 12:12pm - #374388 
N2O vs. CO2

I know some people are gonna scream noob for even asking, but fuggit.

1) When you heat nitrous oxide to about 570F it splits into oxygen and nitrogen. So the injection of nitrous oxide into an engine means that more oxygen is available during combustion
2) When it vaporizes, nitrous oxide provides a significant cooling effect on the Intake air. When you reduce the Intake air temperature, you increase the air's density, and this provides even more oxygen inside the cylinder.

Co2 gas can be cold enough to freeze off skin like it was burnt, so it will definitely lower the charge temperature, and at minimum eliminate heat sink. I am currently trying to find the temperature at which carbon dioxide splits in the same manner as N20. It can still deliver more oxygen than atmospheric air by breaking down at elevated temperatures, thus allowing the engine to burn more fuel and air. that is assuming C02 breaks down at elevated temperatures.

so to you, budding scientists and chemists;

1) Is the breakdown point (of carbon dioxide) similiar to nitrous, or at least not exceeding engine tolerances?

2) I know C02 is a by-product and comes out the exhaust. when the oxygen splits from the carbon, will there be carbon by-products building up in the engine?

what I am generally asking the science smart people around here if this is workable. I was thinking of simply having a tiny nozzle, hooked up to a 20oZ paintball tank poked into my Cold Air Intake or air box to deliver this cold charge right into the EFI, but with some kind of control on how much is delivered that I have yet to devise. so; will it work? and will I even want it to?

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Lucky_317
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Lucky_317

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2000 Toyota Celica

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Fontana, CA
Jan 14, 12:37pm - #374389 
i'm prety sure c02 starts it's breakdown point at 31 degrees celsius


Best 60' 1.959 best 1/4 - 13.7 @ 101mph
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blackcel
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blackcel

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2000 Toyota Celica GT

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Southeastern, Illinois
Jan 14, 12:44pm - #374390 
Wow!!! Sounds like it would be great, good luck though. Let us, and me especially know how it goes. thumbsup


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celestial5gen
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celestial5gen
1990 Blue Metallic Pearl Toyota Celica GT
New Member
1990 Toyota Celica GT

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New Jersey, NJ
Jan 14, 1:00pm - #374391 
no, no, missing the point- thats the problem, it sounds great, yeah.. this stuff is about 100x cheaper than N2O and holds more oxygen, if not less of a punch, as far as I can tell. I just can't tell if this is gonna lean out my engine and blow it up or form huge carbon-crystal rocks that shoot out the back...
I need scientific know-how, along with a little mechanical wisdom.

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Lucky_317
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Lucky_317

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2000 Toyota Celica

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Fontana, CA
Jan 14, 2:14pm - #374392 
I guess you'll have to performa science experiment and let us know how it goes.


Best 60' 1.959 best 1/4 - 13.7 @ 101mph
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celicadragon
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celicadragon

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Pittsburgh, PA
Jan 14, 2:26pm - #374393 
i do know that that nitrous express ntercooler system that sprays on you intercooler when you have turbo or supercharger , it uses co2 and n20 is also an option if that helps


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Speed4TheNeed
Caleb
Speed4TheNeed

Caleb
2000 Toyota Celica

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New Orleans, LA
Jan 14, 2:31pm - #374394 
^^ yea, its called Cry02...it doesnt enter your Intake or engine though. its just used to have a cooling effect.

Cry02 can be used in conjuction with n20, if you wanted.

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celicadragon
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celicadragon

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Pittsburgh, PA
Jan 14, 2:33pm - #374395 
i think thats the name of another company but yeah same effect


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Speed4TheNeed
Caleb
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Caleb
2000 Toyota Celica

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New Orleans, LA
Jan 14, 2:34pm - #374396 
well, whatever...same difference spineyes thumbsup

thanks for the headsup though

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Lucky_317
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Lucky_317

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2000 Toyota Celica

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Fontana, CA
Jan 14, 3:14pm - #374397 
try in on like a old beater car to see what happens lol I'm sure you can find something that half way runs for under $800


Best 60' 1.959 best 1/4 - 13.7 @ 101mph
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Rave669
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Rave669

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Lisle, IL
Jan 14, 4:52pm - #374398 
Okay, here's some info for you on this whole idea. I have a keen interest in science, so I'll give you the straight up skinny, CO2 will NOT work like N20, here's why.

We, as living creatures, bring in oxygen to our lungs, this oxygen is used to burn off our fuel (food and water) to power our our flesh-and-blood bodies As a byproduct, we exhale a gas called carbon dioxide, or CO2 as it's been called here.

Now, cars are a lot like us, they need fuel and oxygen to produce the energy to sling the pistons and make power to move, just like us. You normally wouldn't think of them being "Alive" like we humans, but in reality, they are. You see, none of this is possible without fire, the fire that is burnt from gasoline and air in each cylinder...

Many firefighters and scientist describe fire like a living creature, it breathes, it eats, and will move along any path where there is fuel to burn, it can reproduce. It's life, but not as you know it.

Unlike us, car engines, and specifically, the fire in the cylinders, produces a byproduct in the combustion process, a gass called carbon monoxide, or simply CO.

living creatures give off carbon dioxide, most fires give off carbon monoxide (some give off more than that, depanding on what is burned as fuel). Carbon monoxide is poisonous to humans, however, the human body can tolerate carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide has two oxygen atoms to every carbon atom, while Carbon Monoxide has only one oxygen atom to every carbon atom. May not sound like much, but it's a major differnce in terms of chemistry.

Injecting co2 will reduce temps, but it will also starve the combustion chambers of oxygen, the carbon atom (and it's strong atomic bond to the oxygen) will not be broken easily by combustion temps. It could be used to deter detonation if used in trace amounts, but any actual "shot" of co2 will just bog your engine. Remember, we can't breathe-in on CO2 alone, and neither can a fire.

So why does N2O, or nitrous oxide, work when co2 doesn't? that's simple, it's because N2O is what's known as an oxidizer.

aside from the one atom of oxygen in each molecule, Nitrous has two aces up it's sleeves: a pair of nitrogen atoms (Nitrogen is what makes things like "fertilizer bombs" work) since it's only oxygen and nitrogen, the atomic bond isn't as strong as it is in CO2. under cylinder temps and pressures, it comes apart at the seams, delivering an oxygen/nitrogen ratio of 1/2 in other words: one part oxygen to two parts "fuel catalyst". When combined with more fuel, the result is a much bigger bang, and co2 simply can't do this. Nitrogen won't work either, not without extra oxygen.

For chilling intercoolers, or Intakes, CO2 would work great because it's cheaper than N2O, but it will just hinder your engine if shot directly down the Intake. Too much CO2 = Weak burn.


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blitzceli
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blitzceli

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2000 Toyota Celica GTS

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orange park florida
Jan 14, 8:47pm - #374399 
i got the cry02 xmas.It is sweet.Go to their web page to get more info on it.


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BrokenDreams23
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BrokenDreams23

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2001 Toyota Celica GT

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Posts: 74
FL
Jan 14, 10:52pm - #374400 
Hey check this out. might not be the same but it seems would sorta work but reduce air amount.
http://www.autotoys.com/x/cust/product.php?productid=4453&cat=993&page=1

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Rave669
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Rave669

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Lisle, IL
Jan 15, 4:30pm - #374401 
I'd rather run a copper coil of tubing around the outside of the Intake and shoot the CO2 through that.

Either that, or mount Peltier device/heatsinks on the Intake, same result/no CO2 needed. Check out this website to see how they work.
http://www.magaland.com/tecmodules.html


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celicatuner
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celicatuner
2002 silver Toyota Celica
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2002 Toyota Celica

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amherst, ma
Jan 16, 11:53am - #374402 
there ya go put an intercooler on your Intake and spray it with co2.

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Speed4TheNeed
Caleb
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Caleb
2000 Toyota Celica

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New Orleans, LA
Jan 16, 12:01pm - #374403 
Originally Posted by Rave669
I'd rather run a copper coil of tubing around the outside of the Intake and shoot the CO2 through that.

Either that, or mount Peltier device/heatsinks on the Intake, same result/no CO2 needed. Check out this website to see how they work.
http://www.magaland.com/tecmodules.html


that sounds pretty cool (the copper coil). lemme know if you do that sometime thumbsup

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Rave669
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Rave669

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Posts: 522
Lisle, IL
Jan 16, 4:15pm - #374404 
Originally Posted by celicatuner

there ya go put an intercooler on your intake and spray it with co2.


Neat idea, but the added weight would almost negate the performance benefits.

Keep in mind, you're adding a 10-pound bottle of CO2, all the solenoids & crud, as well as an intercooler and piping. It's worth it with a turbo, but on a NA motor... I don't know.

As for actually using co2 to cool the Intake, I may try it sometime, but not a huge bottle, just my paintball gun tank (keeps the weight down & good enough for experimentation. If I were to do anything, it would probably be a nitrous kit. But since copper tubing is somewhat cheap and easy to come by, I may just try to put something together to see how effective it is.

Pretty useless right now, since it's freezing outside in my area... Hey I get the benifits of CO2 for free right now, and it doesn't add weight to the car.


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celicatuner
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celicatuner
2002 silver Toyota Celica
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2002 Toyota Celica

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amherst, ma
Jan 16, 9:38pm - #374405 
just had an idea if you wanted to be really cheesy and pretend you had nitrous you could hook up a co2 paintball tank to a nitrous purg kit for about 100 dollars you could make it look like you have nitrous and that your purging. and then for another 50 you could buy one of those nitrous bottle speaker thingys to put in your trunk to complete the illusion.

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celicadragon
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celicadragon

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Pittsburgh, PA
Jan 17, 10:30am - #374406 
that my friend would be very ricey... rice


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Speed4TheNeed
Caleb
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Caleb
2000 Toyota Celica

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New Orleans, LA
Jan 17, 11:07am - #374407 
Originally Posted by celicadragon
that my friend would be very ricey... rice

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