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VVTL-i vs VTEC #349639 Dec 12, 12:17pm Dec 12, 12:17pm
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melbourne, Fl
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VVTL-i vs VTEC
im sure this is a repost but i cant decide which is better. i tried to search but it found no matches. Thing is the GS-R im lookin at is still for sale but i dont know if i should get it instead of waiting for a celica. My borther has VTEC in his civic but he says he cant really feel it when it kicks in. I wanna have somethin i can hear and feel and from what ive read on this site lift has that. So if anyone can clue me in on how the two compare thatd be cool thanks

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: CivicRunner] #349640 Dec 12, 12:37pm Dec 12, 12:37pm
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what does VTEC even do?


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Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: BigTony] #349641 Dec 12, 12:44pm Dec 12, 12:44pm
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my father has a 2003 accord with vtec and i CANT feel it kick in. with lift you will always feel it kick in on the gts. as for deciding on wether to wait or not i can tell you the celica is a relliable car. i can personally say this since my car has about 240k miles on it on the same engine and it is a 2000 gt. but if you want a gs-r than go for it. thumbsup thumbsup
good luck with what evr you choose thumbsup grin

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: CivicRunner] #349642 Dec 12, 12:59pm Dec 12, 12:59pm
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Originally Posted by CivicRunner
i tried to search but it found no matches.
wtf





I think the closest match to vvtl-i would be honda's i-vtec rather than v-tec.

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: ikin] #349643 Dec 12, 1:04pm Dec 12, 1:04pm
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I-VTEC like the RSX type S has is basically the same as Lift on the gts. they are pretty much 2 different ways to accomplish the same thing.

The VTEC on the GSR isn't like the GTS.

If you actually want to feel it and thats what's important then the celica is what you'll want.

but the choice is up to you.


Best 60' 1.959 best 1/4 - 13.7 @ 101mph
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Lucky_317] #349644 Dec 12, 1:21pm Dec 12, 1:21pm
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I would choose VVTL-i wink plus the 2z engines I believe the block is made by yamaha! Which is cool!

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: RookieGTS] #349645 Dec 12, 1:28pm Dec 12, 1:28pm
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my friend have a gsr integra...and you can feel the vtec kick in just like the vvtl-i.


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Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: gtscelica05] #349646 Dec 12, 3:15pm Dec 12, 3:15pm
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yea i would say that the new i-vtec are more simliar to the vvtli but the old vtecs seem pretty similar but i don't kno the technical differences from the old vtec and the new i-vtec.. soo yea.. but if i were to choose a gsr to a gts i would say gts because its newer technology and its faster then gsr stock to stock i think... gts should be at or near the same level as the rsx type-s... or maybe you should consider getting a integra type r those are pretty quick..

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: andrewgovroom] #349647 Dec 12, 3:35pm Dec 12, 3:35pm
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My friend sent me this video, here goes a TYPE-R vs a GTS thumbsup

Attached File
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: RookieGTS] #349648 Dec 12, 4:30pm Dec 12, 4:30pm
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I know people are gonna call me a fanboy for this, but I like to think I know a lil here and there.

If you just want to FEEL it kick in, GTS is definitely the way to go. The mid cam profile on the 2zz is somewhat lacking in stock form thus it allows you to feel when the high cam kicks in.

As far as modability, I firmly believe the 2zz has more potential than the b18. Ive never seen the b18 dyno as good with the same mods as the 2zz. Now you guys will argue that the b18 has better aftermarket, which RIGHT NOW it does, but believe me when I tell you. The head on 2ZZ screams flow. It's wonderfully designed and I can't wait to show you all what its capable of!

My choice is grab the Celica, you will be more pleased with it from what you are telling us.

But test drive both and see which you like more. After all it is YOUR car.


TPR Intake! - Injens high end with AEM's low end and NO BOGGING!
TPR EXHAUST! - Exhaust made 10.5 whp peak and 32 whp at 6300 on my car!!!
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Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Easy_C] #349649 Dec 12, 5:19pm Dec 12, 5:19pm
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You should really search man.
I got 2 good page here on Honda's VTEC.

I have always heard I-VTEC is better in performance.
VVTLI is better for economy and everyday drivability.
Sorry if that dissapoint some of our Toyota fans, but the truth is the truth. Unless otherwise.

Yeah here you go

http://asia.vtec.net/article/k20a/

http://asia.vtec.net/spfeature/vtecimpl/vtec1.html


.::Expect The Unexpected::.

{o.0}
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: UnlimitationZ] #349650 Dec 12, 5:31pm Dec 12, 5:31pm
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I heard VTEC's are just for hosers...

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: UnlimitationZ] #349651 Dec 12, 5:36pm Dec 12, 5:36pm
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your kinda asking a biased opinion, if you go to an integra forum and ask this same question people are gonna be GS-R GS-R GS-R!!! just do some reasearch on both cars and decide by yourself. from experience, I've seen a reflashed RSX w/ headers and an Intake walk on a nissan 240SX w/ a stock SR20DET swap. the K20(i-Vtec) motor in the RSX-s is incredibly fast. I'm not a honda fan, but those fuckers become fast after a few bolt ons, unlike the GTS. celicas look better on the other hand and handle MUCH better. if you want performance go for the RSX if you have a choice and don't even think about the GSR unless your willing to put a good amount of money in for performane. If you want an over-all nice car, go for the GTS. it not only has the performance that can be competative, it is nicer, handles better, and...its made by toyota. I may be wrong about some of this stuff, but thats my 2 cents...or 10 cents


The 2ZZ god
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: RookieGTS] #349652 Dec 12, 5:40pm Dec 12, 5:40pm
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Originally Posted by RookieGTS
My friend sent me this video, here goes a TYPE-R vs a GTS thumbsup


I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like that Celica driver lands in lift on that first shift. perhaps he could have pulled harder on the Type-R...


I get my kicks on EC.
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: QTRMLR_1] #349653 Dec 12, 6:01pm Dec 12, 6:01pm
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i-VTEC is better for performance because it works the Cams and the valves as compare to VVTL-I, which only works on valves.

Thats what remember. Correct me if I am wrong.

Heres a very good write-up. Enjoy. and End of story.

http://www.billzilla.org/vvtvtec.htm


.::Expect The Unexpected::.

{o.0}
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: UnlimitationZ] #349654 Dec 12, 6:50pm Dec 12, 6:50pm
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There are 2 types of VTEC:

-Emissions: Cars like the Civic (and 2003 up Si's), Accord, Odyssey, CR-V all have the emissions vtec witch just gives you better MPG

-Performace: cars like the Integra Type-R, Integra GS-R, RSX-S, S2000, 1999-2001 Civic Si's, NSX. This gives the engine better cam shafts (3 lobe), and a lift roller on the 3rd lobe to initiate the ''lift'', it's electronically controlled by the ECU and is totally electronic in engagement.

VVTL-i is purely mechanical via lift bolts (for engagement) and ECU signals, plus the cams get sprayed with oil so they don't get damaged. VVTL-i only has 2 cam lobe's.


FF TWINCAM BEAUTY: CELICA
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Polykarb] #349655 Dec 12, 8:27pm Dec 12, 8:27pm
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Speed4TheNeed
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i'm not to sure about the specifics...but the way i learned the basics was that at higher rpm's the fuel injectors inject more fuel. thats the basics for both vvtl-i and v-tec.

ask yamaha

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Speed4TheNeed] #349656 Dec 12, 9:28pm Dec 12, 9:28pm
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the only thing i would consider is that vtec or i-vtec doesn't have the borken lift bolts on the 2zz...

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: ragingpaseo] #349657 Dec 12, 9:37pm Dec 12, 9:37pm
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i love my VVT-I..that shit kicks in so loud!!

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Babyboi419] #349658 Dec 12, 9:45pm Dec 12, 9:45pm
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Originally Posted by Babyboi419
i love my VVT-I..that shit kicks in so loud!!


I didn't know there's a "kicks" in GT... confused rofl rofl
the only "kicks" i know of on the celica are from the GTS...

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: celicafourotwo] #349659 Dec 12, 9:56pm Dec 12, 9:56pm
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Originally Posted by celicafourotwo
Originally Posted by Babyboi419
i love my VVT-I..that shit kicks in so loud!!


I didn't know there's a "kicks" in GT... confused rofl rofl
the only "kicks" i know of on the celica are from the GTS...


depends how you define a "kick" i have a gt and my vvt-i "KICKS"! but of course the vvtl-i kicks much louder!!!

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Babyboi419] #349660 Dec 12, 10:01pm Dec 12, 10:01pm
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gt does not have lift


I got a Heart of a Lion, and a nuts of an elephant
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: bigw0rm] #349661 Dec 12, 10:03pm Dec 12, 10:03pm
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There is a slight "kick" at 4000 when VVT-i starts working, although "kick" isn't the word I'd use. It's barely noticeable, but it's there.

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Babyboi419] #349662 Dec 12, 10:53pm Dec 12, 10:53pm
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Originally Posted by Babyboi419

Originally Posted by celicafourotwo

Originally Posted by Babyboi419

i love my VVT-I..that shit kicks in so loud!!


I didn't know there's a "kicks" in GT... confused rofl rofl
the only "kicks" i know of on the celica are from the GTS...


depends how you define a "kick" i have a gt and my vvt-i "KICKS"! but of course the vvtl-i kicks much louder!!!


MAN, YOU ARE SUCH A FUCKING DUMBASS!!! VVTI is in the camry and sienna, does that "KICK"??? Moron. Dumb ass ricer. Learn something about your OWN car before you post.

BTW, have you even heard a GTS?? It's not that loud.


Enzo Ferrari " You may be a Ferrari owner; but, you may not necessarly be a Ferrari Driver."
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: jyboygenius] #349663 Dec 12, 11:28pm Dec 12, 11:28pm
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slittle harsh jyboygenius but true. Now if you mean OWT for the kick, i can knda understand. but still the gt doesnt have avery loud sound, atleast fomr the one i testdrove. Man am i glad i testdrove the gt 1st, then got the gts to truly appreciate lift wink U al hear the new rsx type s has 210 hp. Man i wish tyota woudl have beefed up the vttli a bit more. 30hp is a pretty large difference. but then again our car looks better wink ok maybe alitle pompus but still smile

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: QTRMLR_1] #349664 Dec 12, 11:39pm Dec 12, 11:39pm
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Originally Posted by QTRMLR_1
Originally Posted by RookieGTS
My friend sent me this video, here goes a TYPE-R vs a GTS thumbsup


I could be wrong, but it doesn't sound like that Celica driver lands in lift on that first shift. perhaps he could have pulled harder on the Type-R...


yeah I know but it was from a roll race. GTS still won anyway.

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: jyboygenius] #349665 Dec 13, 12:10am Dec 13, 12:10am
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Originally Posted by jyboygenius

MAN, YOU ARE SUCH A FUCKING DUMBASS!!! VVTI is in the camry and sienna, does that "KICK"??? Moron. Dumb ass ricer. Learn something about your OWN car before you post.

BTW, have you even heard a GTS?? It's not that loud.


goodness.!!!..have i gone the extra length to get someone to explode on me?sheeshhh well im sorry pal for my misinterpretation of the work KiCk and loud..talk about anger management..give this guy a chill-pill...plz plz...im innocent...ok if i was wrong bout the vvtl-i being loud..then ok then..but does not make me a ricer..its jsut my opinion about the vvt-i and vvtl-i..its not a FACT!!..if im wrong ,then im wrong "sue me"..if you want me to say it again ill do it...just to piss you of even more...

VVT-I KICKS Baby!!! and VVTL-I kicks LOUDER

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Babyboi419] #349666 Dec 13, 12:56am Dec 13, 12:56am
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y0 babyboi its ok man... We all have different biased opinions on our cars and what "WE" feel. But all in all, Celicas are nice cars and I bet all of us appreciate them.

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: RookieGTS] #349667 Dec 13, 2:23am Dec 13, 2:23am
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ok here is my two cents... i used to have an integra... a lot of my friends have a b18 in there hacth... my town is all about honda motors... Vtec is not that dependable... sometimes it might not come in and sometimes it does its all about how hott the engine is... after the gts warms up i never seen or here it not cutting... VVTL-i is dependable... also all my friends have trouble with there vtec and so far the people i know with celica havent. I think vtec is over rated. I used to have both and also a 240sx. You got to think yamaha built our heads... im pretty sure...


by the way jyboygenius man you should chill... i can here a gt kick... not as much as a gts... but you should lay off people... just because you said that doesnt mean that dont know nothing about there cars... maybe they feel the differnce in motion easier then you... if i can feel a van kick i think i can feel a camry... celica gt kick. i dont want to jump your case because i think you might off help me out in the past or talk about something about cars... but i think you jump the gun on that one

but i can tell you one thing about celicas... i hate the gears... or i might just be to use to a 240sx

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: gts_drew] #349668 Dec 13, 5:50am Dec 13, 5:50am
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Wow, there is so much misinformation in this thread. LOL. I shall set the record straight. First off, i-VTEC and VVTL-i essentially perform the same function. Both involve two stages of valve lift on 2 separate cam profiles. Both involve variable valve timing. Both switch over at a predetermined point. Both are (i believe) controlled hydraulically. Lift in the 2zz is NOT controlled by the lift bolts or by the fuel injectors.

As for the K20A making more power...well, show me a dyno of an axle back exhaust making 10 whp. Sorry to keep having to use the TPR exhaust, but fact is fact. The 2zz adapts to mods just as well as the K20A, however I believe the 2zz to have a better flowing head than the K20A, which is why a good head package will allow the 2ZZ to compete with it even tho it has a displacement of 1.8 liters.


Now for lift being loud...Have you ever heard lift engage with an Intake? If not i'll be more than glad to supply you with a sound clip or a video clip.

yes the new RSX Type S comes with 210 Hp...it also comes with a porky body for the market its in. They are still heavy. Toyota doesnt need a beefier engine (stock) to compete with it.

As for slight kick when VVTi "starts working"...this incredibly false, VVTi is working all the time.

Honda may have used 3 lobes on their VTEC camshafts however the ones that change valve lift only have two preset lift specifications, essentially making it perform almost exactly the same was the 2 lobe system used by the 2zz.

As far as VVTL-i being for economy and VTEC being for performance...thats rather amusing. VTEC was mainly used for economy back in its civic days. i-VTEC and VVTL-i are both for performance only. If it were for economy, I'd get more than 29MPG being in lift all the time...

I hope this helped everyone before they started believing everything in this thread. Any other questions let me know smile


TPR Intake! - Injens high end with AEM's low end and NO BOGGING!
TPR EXHAUST! - Exhaust made 10.5 whp peak and 32 whp at 6300 on my car!!!
http://www.tuningprecisionracing.com/shop
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Easy_C] #349669 Dec 13, 7:26am Dec 13, 7:26am
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yea i meant the i-vtec, thanks guys, oh and easy_c id like a sound slip or vid clip if thats cool.

thanks for the info people thumbsup

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Easy_C] #349670 Dec 13, 7:31am Dec 13, 7:31am
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YoU GuyZ ArE CrAZy spineyes
You can feel the vtec kick in in hondas, i mean, depending if its dohc or sohc is how hard it "kicks". Some people say that you cant feel the sohc vtec start, but let me tell you that may be the case stock, but you put some bolt-ons on it and you can hear the changeover. I have a 93 celi that i like to race my brother in his 97 civic ex, i beat him off the line everytime, but his car just has a little more hp in that vtec to make his car faster. Everytime he catches up, i can hear the vtec. Cant wait till this wednesday till i get my 2k back...hehehehe, ill show his but what vvtl-i sounds like again.well, that is if i dont beat him off the line as badly as i do.Better yet, ill have to start out of lift on a roll for him to hear it kick in. Oh and speaking of being loud with an Intake, OMG that is nutz. I was rollin around with just an AEM Intake, and it was louder than most exhausts running around here. When i first put it on, i thought that was the craziest thing. thumbsup


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Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Easy_C] #349671 Dec 13, 8:09am Dec 13, 8:09am
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this is stupid who cares if you can feel it or not it all comes down to how sensative ur ass is? tasty and personally i think vvtl-i is comparable to the i-vtec...i just bought a TSX and i "feel" it...i think it also comes down to the overall weight of the car and the celica is really light compared to some other cars...just my two cents


SiLvErCeLi
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: silverceli21] #349672 Dec 13, 9:16am Dec 13, 9:16am
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heres a sound clip of a driveby with just my Intake smile

Attached File
1953382867-TPR intake.mp3  (105 downloads)

TPR Intake! - Injens high end with AEM's low end and NO BOGGING!
TPR EXHAUST! - Exhaust made 10.5 whp peak and 32 whp at 6300 on my car!!!
http://www.tuningprecisionracing.com/shop
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: silverceli21] #349673 Dec 13, 9:21am Dec 13, 9:21am
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renfield90
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Originally Posted by Easy_C
As for slight kick when VVTi "starts working"...this incredibly false, VVTi is working all the time.


It's true that it's working all the time, but my understanding is that valve timings are changed very little below 4000 RPMs, and at 4K and above is where the significant timing changes occur (logical since max torque comes around there on the 1ZZ).

Again, kick is really a bad word...typically you can tell that the engine starts pulling harder at 4K, and sometimes this translates into a little "tug" at 4K (I think tug is a better word, damn I need a thesaurus). I have reason to believe that this little "tug" is more pronounced on the GT (I've driven both, you really don't feel it that much in the GTS, then again I was waiting for lift lol).

I'm not a big expert like you, but I know how my car feels. It's not lift, it's not really a kick, but it's there.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything.

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: renfield90] #349674 Dec 13, 9:37am Dec 13, 9:37am
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chicago
Babyboi419
VVT-I Spec
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Babyboi419
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chicago
let it shall be the vvti is just there..leave it as that cool

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: renfield90] #349675 Dec 13, 10:23am Dec 13, 10:23am
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Mass
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Easy_C
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Easy_C
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Originally Posted by renfield90
Originally Posted by Easy_C
As for slight kick when VVTi "starts working"...this incredibly false, VVTi is working all the time.


It's true that it's working all the time, but my understanding is that valve timings are changed very little below 4000 RPMs, and at 4K and above is where the significant timing changes occur (logical since max torque comes around there on the 1ZZ).

Again, kick is really a bad word...typically you can tell that the engine starts pulling harder at 4K, and sometimes this translates into a little "tug" at 4K (I think tug is a better word, damn I need a thesaurus). I have reason to believe that this little "tug" is more pronounced on the GT (I've driven both, you really don't feel it that much in the GTS, then again I was waiting for lift lol).

I'm not a big expert like you, but I know how my car feels. It's not lift, it's not really a kick, but it's there.

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything.


I believe its set up on the 2zz in 3 "profiles" if you will. Low/Mid/High...High is obviously lift, mid is from about 4500 to 6200, and low is 0 - 4500. What you feel is probbly the new "profile" switching over smile


TPR Intake! - Injens high end with AEM's low end and NO BOGGING!
TPR EXHAUST! - Exhaust made 10.5 whp peak and 32 whp at 6300 on my car!!!
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Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Easy_C] #349676 Dec 13, 4:41pm Dec 13, 4:41pm
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ChiNeyBwoy
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ChiNeyBwoy
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this is how lift sounds

Attached File
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Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: ChiNeyBwoy] #349677 Dec 13, 5:16pm Dec 13, 5:16pm
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jyboygenius
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^^Yeah, I've heard that before in MY OWN car. It's fun, yah, but you feel real stupid when a vette growls his 8 at you. BTW, that "kick" you say you can feel at 4000rpms...that ain't no kick. That's just entering the main band of torque and hitting its peak.


Enzo Ferrari " You may be a Ferrari owner; but, you may not necessarly be a Ferrari Driver."
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: jyboygenius] #349678 Dec 14, 12:31am Dec 14, 12:31am
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nc, usa
gts_drew
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gts_drew
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i really think that are cars stock aint that fast... but of course my dad used to have a old GTO, Mustang, Firebird... now those are big v8... they kick. If your in a old 60's something firedbird (i think my dad drove a 69) with a big v8 and then drive a celica gts or gt... then give me the true meaning of a kick

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: gts_drew] #349679 Dec 14, 1:27am Dec 14, 1:27am
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jyboygenius
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^^Thank you for reassuring my point. There's nothing as fun as being planted against the seat with the torque of a V8.


Enzo Ferrari " You may be a Ferrari owner; but, you may not necessarly be a Ferrari Driver."
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: jyboygenius] #349680 Dec 14, 1:39am Dec 14, 1:39am
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QTRMLR_1
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QTRMLR_1
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Los Angeles, CA
I'd be kidding myself if I said I didn't feel a low-end kick on my flywheeled, completely-gutted, PowerFC-ed GTS. You don't know what I'm talking about until you've felt how the PowerFC makes you think you're driving a completely different car.


I get my kicks on EC.
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: QTRMLR_1] #349681 Dec 14, 2:21am Dec 14, 2:21am
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Elec-FuYu
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^^^i believe you~ grin thumbsup

i personally like the VVTL-I better, that's why i chose celica in the first place. but i wont diss i-VTEC, as they kicks hard too~ thumbsup


I am a HID Maniac!!
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Elec-FuYu] #349682 Dec 14, 4:30am Dec 14, 4:30am
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Akita
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Can I kick it?


heh spineyes

Celica VVTi doesn't really "Kick" but I do know what he means. 4,200 rpm the engine note changes noticeably into a more aggresive sound, if you are balancing in 3rd gear at 4,200 and then floor it you can tell the engine's right on the sweet spot and it does sound nice smile Can't wait to hear how it sounds with my TPR Intake (if it ever gets here!! thumbsup)

Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Akita] #349683 Dec 14, 5:45am Dec 14, 5:45am
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LA 626 area
RyCeCuBe
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RyCeCuBe
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my opinion, i'd get the GTS spineyes similar variable valve timing technology, similar performance..try lookin at it this way..engine that produces 100 hp per liter or 94.5 hp per liter? 6-speed or 5-speed? new/futuristic design or oldschool typical rice design? toyota or honda? add those all up n you got ur answer. and like wat many others say..i'll say again: the sound of lift that's so important to you on the gts won't let ya down...even stock you can hear it screaming at 6K rpm.


[Linked Image]
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: Akita] #349684 Dec 14, 9:52am Dec 14, 9:52am
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Bradenton, FL
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skym
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Originally Posted by Akita
Can I kick it?


heh spineyes

Celica VVTi doesn't really "Kick" but I do know what he means. 4,200 rpm the engine note changes noticeably into a more aggresive sound, if you are balancing in 3rd gear at 4,200 and then floor it you can tell the engine's right on the sweet spot and it does sound nice smile Can't wait to hear how it sounds with my TPR Intake (if it ever gets here!! thumbsup)


I have an auto gt but I know what he's talking about also.
When I'm going at 45-55 on 4th gear and downshift to 2nd the engine roars pretty nicely and tires screach sometimes with bad cement grin

And also when you are going 50 on auto and floor it it downshifts to 3rd gear and it seems the cars kickin... but it's actually just downshift...

Correct me if I'm wrong rice


Quote:
Originally posted by tido:
i beat a dude on a bike going to work today...i revved on him and we lined up at the light and it was on....i hit lift once...thats how hardcore it was....
Re: VVTL-i vs VTEC [Re: skym] #349685 Dec 14, 7:54pm Dec 14, 7:54pm
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Posts: 245
ma
silverceli21
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silverceli21
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ma
even tho i now have an acura tsx i love celicas...def kick ass and after i left the high school like 5 people bought celicas grin helped show wut beauty you can get out of it


SiLvErCeLi
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