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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 12:41pm - #338796 
2002 Absolutely Red Toyota Celica GT
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400hp V8 vs. 400hp 4 cylinder

Sorry if this has been asked before, but if two cars are identicle in every way except one has a 400hp V8 and the other has a 400hp 4 cylinder, which car is faster? 400hp is 400hp right?
Trying to settle an argument with a Mustang owner.
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iggy
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iggy Nov 30, 12:49pm - #338797 
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The weight will make a ton of difference for sho, tires, rear wheel drive, all wheel drive, transmission, this thread is going to be fun thumbsup

Mustang = ugly thumbsdown rofl j/k some are nice spineyes
Celica = Hot tasty

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Jtultra Nov 30, 1:14pm - #338798 

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Mustangs...I like the car, not the drivers

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 1:23pm - #338799 
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Thanks iggy,
The argument I'm having with this guy is, if two cars are identiicle in every way, which one will win. Same weight, same gears, same driveline, etc...

I say "400hp is 400hp", the two cars would be the same.
He says "No, a V8 will win because it's a bigger motor"

Thanks Jtultra,
But not all Mustang owners are jerks, just seems like most of them are. I had a 69 Mach 1 that I loved. Just got tired of fixing it all the time.
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iggy
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iggy Nov 30, 1:25pm - #338800 
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Originally Posted by badceli

Thanks iggy,
The argument I'm having with this guy is, if two cars are identiicle in every way, which one will win. Same weight, same gears, same driveline, etc...

I say "400hp is 400hp", the two cars would be the same.
He says "No, a V8 will win because it's a bigger motor"

Thanks Jtultra,
But not all Mustang owners are jerks, just seems like most of them are. I had a 69 Mach 1 that I loved. Just got tired of fixing it all the time.


Ok this is simple now, it's a drivers race then. I beat faster cars because I was a better driver lol. cool Very sad IMO that I could beat a vett with my 280Z but also funny. rofl

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 1:36pm - #338801 
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Shit, forgot to mention same driver in both cars. Just trying to figure out which car would be faster.
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AZZKIKR
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AZZKIKR Nov 30, 2:14pm - #338802 

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eric...its like this buddy...the v8 has more displacement, and less RPM range...he will hit 400 hp at 4500 to 5000 rpm at the limit and have to shift...whereas a 400 hp 4 cylinder won't hit 400 hp until around 6500 rpm, but will be able to keep it going in a shorter gear for 2000 rpm after that...the v8 may take it off the line, but the 4 cylinder should win overall because it can stay at higher power in a lower gear for a longer period of time. Bigger displacement means more torque, and the power comes faster...generally a v8 has a redline of around 5000 rpm at the most, whereas a built 400 hp 4 cylinder (it would have to be built to stand that much boost) could rev until 8500 rpm, and in some cases even 9500 rpm...that should help sort things out... thumbsup
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iggy
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iggy Nov 30, 2:22pm - #338803 
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Originally Posted by AZZKIKR
eric...its like this buddy...the v8 has more displacement, and less RPM range...he will hit 400 hp at 4500 to 5000 rpm at the limit and have to shift...whereas a 400 hp 4 cylinder won't hit 400 hp until around 6500 rpm, but will be able to keep it going in a shorter gear for 2000 rpm after that...the v8 may take it off the line, but the 4 cylinder should win overall because it can stay at higher power in a lower gear for a longer period of time. Bigger displacement means more torque, and the power comes faster...generally a v8 has a redline of around 5000 rpm at the most, whereas a built 400 hp 4 cylinder (it would have to be built to stand that much boost) could rev until 8500 rpm, and in some cases even 9500 rpm...that should help sort things out... thumbsup

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 2:40pm - #338804 
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Thank you very much Steve. I should have known you would know the answer to that one. I will definitely use that in my next argument with him.
Now I have one more question. He thinks his 96 Mustang is the shit. It's built and has about 400hp. He says there is no way my hamster powered little 4 banger will ever beat him, even after I do reach my 400whp goal for my Celica. Now I know that if I am able to reach 400whp, I will be spinning my wheels like crazy, while he will get better grip and take me off the line, but I think with him being so much heavier and me being able to rev higher, I should be able to take him.
What do you think?
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celicadragon
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celicadragon Nov 30, 2:57pm - #338805 

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ok if the mustang is rear wheel it has an advantage there since rear wheel gets the power down better but the wight in a mustang is a lot compared to a celica-so that on top of the rpm stuff will definately make this a drivers race but imo a full 1/4 mile the celica would win if the torque numbers are right since the torque is what will get you moving not the hp the hp keeps you moving

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 3:06pm - #338806 
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Thanks celicadragon,
We have both been racing cars for about the past 20 years or so. Not professionally, just for fun, so I'm not sure who is going to be the better driver. He does have the advantage there because he has had Mustangs forever and I have never driven a 400hp 4 cylinder.
I'll be sure to get lot's of practice at the track before I take him on though. This is one race I would really hate to lose. I would never hear the end of it.
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iggy
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iggy Nov 30, 3:07pm - #338807 
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Originally Posted by badceli
Thanks celicadragon,
We have both been racing cars for about the past 20 years or so. Not professionaly, just for fun, so I'm not sure who is going to be the better driver. He does have the advantage there because he has had Mustangs forever and I have never driven a 400hp 4 cylinder.
I'll be sure to get lot's of practice at the track before I take him on though. This is one race I would really hate to loose. I would never hear the end of it.

Just tell him good race and to STFU rofl Good Luck thumbsup

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 3:20pm - #338808 
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I give up iggy, what does STFU stand for? I think I know what the "FU" stand for, but what about the "ST"?
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AZZKIKR
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AZZKIKR Nov 30, 3:25pm - #338809 

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eric...I recommend building your block with the monkeywrench internals, sleeving the block, and o-ringing the bastard to make sure it can handle whatever boost you want to throw at it...then I recommend a c2power tranny to hold the torque you will create, and a stage 3 turbo kit from him, only instead of going with the Garrett GT28RS turbo, you go with the GArrett GT30R turbo...its got a smaller turbine housing, but a bigger compressor housing...it spools faster and makes more power too...either that or go with the GT32 with either the 71mm or 76mm trim...its up to you...they are all good for around 500 hp...also, the Monkey wrench racing guys have their 1zz turbo MRS putting down 385 to the wheels, and 295 ft-lbs of torque...I think with the GT30R or the GT32 you might even break that if everything is built properly to withstand it
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iggy
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iggy Nov 30, 3:41pm - #338810 
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Originally Posted by badceli
I give up iggy, what does STFU stand for? I think I know what the "FU" stand for, but what about the "ST"?


STFU = Shut The Fuck Up lol tell him that thumbsup

Don't worry we are all Linked Image's at one time spineyes

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 3:59pm - #338811 
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Thanks Steve, I will be getting all my internals from MWR and a c2 tranny.
As for the turbo, it's too late. My car is in the middle of having a custom turbo kit installed right now. The last time I asked you, you said you didn't know much about turbos. Guess you been doing some reading huh?
Anyway, I took the shops advise and they are installing a Precision T3/T4 sc32 turbo, good for 480hp. What do think of Precision turbos?
I have seen MWR's MRS. I was so excited when I seen that, I even posted a topic on it awhile back.
That's why I'm making 400whp my goal. The 500whp Celica QTRMLR_1 told me about is a little too crazy for me. If I can hit 400whp, I'll be good with that.
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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 4:01pm - #338812 
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Thanks iggy, yes I'm still a newb.
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spaztikid
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spaztikid Nov 30, 4:45pm - #338813 
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the one that weighs less and is geared for whatever your doing...
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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 7:28pm - #338814 
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Thanks spaztikid. I like your sig by the way. I can't believe nobody said anything to him about that. Guess everybody figured "What's the use".
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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 7:28pm - #338815 
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Thanks spaztikid. I like your sig by the way. I can't believe nobody said anything to him about that. Guess everybody figured "What's the use".
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AZZKIKR
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AZZKIKR Nov 30, 7:36pm - #338816 

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eric...precision turbos are nice too...I'm just omre familiar with the garrett line...MAKE SURE THAT when they build your block they SLEEVE the cylinders and O-RING the block...that way you won't have problems with blowing the head gasket when you trun up the boost
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celicadragon
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celicadragon Nov 30, 7:41pm - #338817 

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just beat him

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 7:44pm - #338818 
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Yes, I will definitely do that. I would like to go with the 2.0 kit. Think that's worth doing? Well not 2.0, but 1.9 something. I can't remember. The internals are going to have to wait a few more months. I've spent my limit for this year. Just trying to learn as much as I can before I start buying everything.
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AZZKIKR
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AZZKIKR Nov 30, 7:47pm - #338819 

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actually...I wouldn't bore...just purchase their piston and sleeve kit...that will set you straight as they come as a set...boring may leave the cylinder walls between each individual cylinder too thin...if you do bore (its been done safely) just make sure you sleeve it as that will help contain the boost without you having to worry about having problems due to high boost...
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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 8:01pm - #338820 
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I figured I would have to bore if I'm going to reach 400whp. I wonder if MWR's MRS is bored. Do you know?
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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 8:33pm - #338821 
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I wish I had the money to do the internals while it's in the shop, but after the turbo install, it's off to body shop, then the last stop is BDaudiocreations. After it get's out of that shop, the mods for this year will be like this...
Custom turbo kit, Precision T3/T4 sc32 turbo, down pipe, 440cc injectors, Greddy E-manage piggy back ECU, High Flow intercooler, Walbro 225 fuel pump, HKS BOV, 3" pipes from header back, N-1 exhaust, chrome spark plug cover, custom Intake manifold chromed, painted engine plastics, NOS w/65 shot, 2 NX bottles, 2 NX remote bottle openers, RPS clutch, Fidanza flywheel, APR widebody kit molded on, TRD wing, shaved door handles, Sparco gas door lid, window tint, BRS Carbon Fiber Hood, APR Carbon Fiber Mirrors, Carbon Fiber wind splitters, Carbon Fiber canards, black Racing Hart CR wheels, Stoptech BBK, TRD coilovers, Tanabe strut bars, 18" Treo sub in molded fiberglass, Zapco 9.0 amp, 2 Zapco 3.0 amps, 2 Boston component set's, 2 SPL caps, 2 red top batteries, mini PS2, Kenwood head unit, Acuistic DVD player, 3 7" screens, chrome 4 point roll bar, chrome bars to hold NX bottles and amps, Greddy boost controller and turbo timer, boost, nitrous and egt gauges, Momo steering wheel, Black Corbeau A-4 seats w/ 4 point harnesses, TRD shift knob, painted dash and all interior plastics.
So I'll be pretty broke after all that is done.
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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 8:35pm - #338822 
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Here is what the exterior will look like.
1953359469-1953331291-products_subcatphoto_aerokits.jpg
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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 8:39pm - #338823 
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And the turbo set up is being ran the same as the Red Dragon's
1953359479-p129563_image_small.jpg
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celicadragon
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celicadragon Nov 30, 8:41pm - #338824 

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i dont think that 2.0 kit is a very good thing to buy for the money and i heard its not very streetable

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 8:47pm - #338825 
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That's okay, it's not a daily driver anymore. The 2.0 kit would give it more power, right? What bad things have you heard about it besides not being good for daily driving?
Shit. I have to go. I'll be back later.
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stefanoc
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stefanoc Nov 30, 8:49pm - #338826 

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obviously v8 car will have more torque, so it will kill the 4.
but somehow if the 4 cylinder is modded like hell with a crazy turbo and all that, and if the torque is the same, then weight is another factor. now lets say the v8 is in the same car as the 4 cylinder, engine is gonna be bigger and heavier, and 4 cylinder tranny wont keep up with it and suspension will sag. now lets say everything is perfect, same weight, same hp and torque, 4 cylinder will have more of a challenge in order to keep up with the 8, 4 cylinder has to stay on peak rpm levels, shift quick and precisely. it wouldnt be much difference if both have the same wtq, whp and same weight somehow.
if there is such thing like that, i would still take the 4 cylinder over the v8
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AZZKIKR
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AZZKIKR Nov 30, 8:50pm - #338827 

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yeah, but he is referring to a bulit celica (very lightweight) vs a bulit (but fat) mustang
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celicadragon
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celicadragon Nov 30, 8:57pm - #338828 

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reliability is one thing

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 9:13pm - #338829 
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Thanks stefanoc. As for the tranny, I will be getting one from c2power and I bought TRD coilovers that I think are pretty stiff. Will those two things take care of the problem you were talking about?

celicadragon, that's a whole other argument him and I have. He things his Mustang is more reliable than my Celica. I don't think so.
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celicadragon
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celicadragon Nov 30, 9:18pm - #338830 

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mustang is a ford F.ix O.r R.epair D.aily

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celicadragon
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celicadragon Nov 30, 9:19pm - #338831 

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celica=perfect

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 9:33pm - #338832 
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Damn right!
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celicadragon
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celicadragon Nov 30, 9:38pm - #338833 

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for sho

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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 9:43pm - #338834 
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I have been selling off all my toys to help pay for all this stuff. I still have the jet-ski for $3,500 if anybody wants it. It's an 1100 stx, perfect condition.
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badceli
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badceli Nov 30, 9:47pm - #338835 
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No, my wife is not for sale. Neither is my motocross bike. THAT I will never give up.
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iggy
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iggy Dec 1, 1:20am - #338836 
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Hahaha my wife is for sale PM me for details, in fact I will give her to you for free. Must haul away, sorry I have a strict no returns policy. happywink

Disclaimer!!!!!!!!!!!!

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GTaintsobad
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GTaintsobad Dec 1, 2:04am - #338837 

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I saw this episode of car and driver where they did track tests on tuner cars - there was a 400+HP golf, and it was faster then the stock Lambo Merciologo (??) with similar power but a V12.. it was also really close to the tuned Corvette engins, so forsure, it'd be way better then the stock ones.. I think a tuned EVO was the fastest one, I believe it was a 4 banger too - but closer to 500HP
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Rave669
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Rave669 Dec 1, 2:52am - #338838 

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Originally Posted by stefanoc

obviously v8 car will have more torque, so it will kill the 4.


You beat me to this point... Sad but true.

You can crunch the numbers all you want, but when it comes down to it, the V8 will own you 9 times out of 10, due to the fact that the V8 will have double the displacement, and gobs of torque throughout the powerband. Also keep in mind that V8 will start making power low in the revs, and reach peak power a lot sooner, due to a shorter rev range.

Sure, you can talk about forced induction, but it's only a way to help reduce the shortcomings of a 4-cyl platform, A 4-cyl will need to work twice as hard to make the same power a V8 does.

You can offset the torque differnce through weight reduction, better tires and a susension that will help your car put that power to the ground, but the sad truth is that any 4-cyl platform will be playing catch-up in terms of the amount of modification to make it on par with most v8 powered platforms.

Now, lets say we compare two cars of sililar performance levels; a Mustang GT to an STi. Both are pretty close to one another in terms of performance: both cars put down about 300 HP. The mustang lays down 320 Ft Lbs of torque while the STi puts down 300 Ft Lbs. of torque The STi weighs in at around 3298 Lbs. and the new mustang GT weighs around 3487 Lbs. the torque difference will offset the weight difference, so, they're evenly matched in terms of performance.

Out of the box, they will be evenly matched from the factory (we will not consider the cobra mustangs here) The AWD setup on the STi will pay off on the initial launch if both drivers are equally matched, however, turbo lag and lower torque band will see that gap shorten quiclky after that. Still the STi can win against a stock car, but the race would be interesting to see whoever wins.

With some exhaust work, headers and an Intake, numbers on that mustang will vastly improve, However, an STI owner will be spending more for similar gains, since the STi is pretty hot from the factory. you will need a turbo upgrade, better intercooler, etc; the mustang, by contrast, has a lot of room for improvement on it's 4.6L modular engine; the STI powerplant has most of it's optimization done at the factory. lastly, that base-trim mustang GT will cost you less money to buy and build up than an STI.

It's not impossible, but it's also not as cost effective. Most import fans claim that almost any 4-cyl can be made to be more ferocious than it's 8-cyl forefathers, but I have seen little proof of this in reality, most of the time, a V8 will hand you your ass if you drive a 4-cyl, boosted or not (My mom's bone-stock, automatic, rusted and out of tune Cougar XR7 walking all over a DSM eclipse with $10K in turbo and other upgrades comes to mind)

Don't forget, V8 owners can go FI too, superchargers add a LOT to the performance of a V8 musclecar, since torque and HP is in ample supply from the get-go. In the end, it could be considered a losing battle most of the time.

If you want to take on a V8, displacement is your friend. Go with the biggest motor you can get. Nissan Sentra Sepc V has a big 4-cyl, and produces lots of torque. with the right mods, the weaker Spec V will beat a GTS celica, mostly because of that extra displacement and torque.

Part of the mystique of import dominance comes from cars like the Z cars and the supra, don't forget these cars come with 6-cyl engines, more displacement, and more torque.

THe last way to offset this difference is to play to the strong suit of the 4-cylinder engine: Rev range. A 4-cyl engine has the potential to rev much higher, and sustain those revs longer. Since a inline-4 achieves peak torque and HP in the high revs, making the motor rev faster, and get to the sweet-spot faster will help you out, knife-edging the crank, lightening the car up, and lightening and strenghtening the valvetrain will go a long way to do this. very few stock V8 engines can rev past 6K safely (except certain ferarris, corvettes or the motor in the mustang cobra R) this is your advantage. The one thing everyone can agree on; you need to beat on a 4-cyl to win in a race with a v8, keep those revs high, and keep the engine screaming to make the same power as the typical V8, which can lazily turn and still shred tires into clouds of smoke.

Of course, this all applies to the drag race, road racing would be another story, since the STi will corner and brake better than the mustang GT.

You need to look at car specs when thinking about building a car to take on a V8, don't look at peak HP numbers, because that's just the PEAK power, you need to check a dyno graph; does the car make 400 Peak HP? Where is it making that power? probably close to the redline. V8's will make peak power closer to the midrange, and will keep making that power up to redline. Also, don't neglect that torque curve, usually, torque decides who wins a race, not the HP numbers.

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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,174
combatc87
Specialist
combatc87 Dec 1, 2:54am - #338839 

Specialist
2001 Toyota Celica GT

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 1,174
Frankfort, IL
yeah, i have the issue. it's the supertuner challege. if you guys want, i can post up the specs on all the cars.

-Combatc87- / -SgT._BiLkO-
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,346
spaztikid
dikitzaps
spaztikid Dec 1, 3:01am - #338840 
dikitzaps
1974 Toyota Celica

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,346
LA
i dont really think the torque is that much of an issue when drag racing...

400hp on our car for example, is boosting at about 22-25 psi roughly...

from the time you launch till the time your hitting full boost should only be a split second...

now with a good lauch on DR's, a 1.8 60 foot can be achieved...

lets say for example we're running a mustang cobra... i think its gonna be pretty much even... his weight will ofset his torque advantage...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 522
Rave669
Senior Member
Rave669 Dec 1, 3:16am - #338841 

Senior Member
2002 Toyota Celica

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 522
Lisle, IL
What about drivetrain loss? You get a lot more drivetrain loss on the F/F celica than you would on the F/R GT mustang.

You would only beat the mustang if the driver of said mustang could not control his wheel spin.

Also, new factory mustangs have some suspension upgrades that help in the 1/4 mile, such as a panhard bar from the factory to eliminate wheel hop and torquesteer.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but turbos don't solve everything. You're already talking about adding turbo, and if you're running 22+ psi of boost, you will need internal upgrades for it to hold up to the increased stress, all the while, the mustang will still be running NA, with just a couple bolt-ons and some ecu programming to make similar numbers. big difference in price here.

Torque plays more of a part than you know; you should talk to some streetrod owners, let them take you for a ride sometime, and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,346
spaztikid
dikitzaps
spaztikid Dec 1, 3:24am - #338842 
dikitzaps
1974 Toyota Celica

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,346
LA
i know the joys of torque... one of my buddies has a s/c'd 98 cobra...

obviously the 4 cyl would have to be f/i and have internals...


i'm willing to bet money, that in a few months when jeff church runs his celica, you'll see some times you wont beleive...

the new stangs have a s/c stock... and yeah, they can get a good launch as well... i'd say somewhere like 1.4 - 1.6 on DR's...

but i still think the weight is gonna be more of an issue than the torque is in a drag race...
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,051
badceli
Specialist
badceli Dec 1, 5:46am - #338843 
2002 Absolutely Red Toyota Celica GT
Specialist
2002 Toyota Celica GT

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 1,051
Texas
HAHA! iggy, you kill me. You better hope your wife doesn't see that. I laughed my ass off though. I feel your pain.

Thanks GTaintsobad, that gives me hope. Well, it did until I got to Rave669's post.

Thanks Rave669, That post was longer than some of GOLDCELICA's. Very good information though. What really sucks is, this guy I want to race also has his car torn apart right now and is adding a supercharger. I think I might be sucking a little.

Thanks combatc87, sure, that would be cool. Let's see it, if you don't mind.

spaztikid, you always give me hope. I still get nervous when I see your name on one of my topics, the way you yell at people sometimes. I never know if you're goiing to come on and call me an idiot or something. Thanks for not doing that.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,233
EuRoBoYGT
black & blue 4 you
EuRoBoYGT Dec 1, 6:19am - #338844 

black & blue 4 you
2000 Toyota Celica GT

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,233
El Paso, TX
damn do you realizes that a 400 hp celica will be doing 9-10's

the 400 hp v-8 will probably do 12

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i've been changing but you'll never see me now
now i'm blaming you for everything
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,346
spaztikid
dikitzaps
spaztikid Dec 1, 6:23am - #338845 
dikitzaps
1974 Toyota Celica

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 5,346
LA
400 hp celica will also do 12's...
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