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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 27, 6:11pm - #31318 
2001 Spec Blue Toyota Celica
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Research Question (Everyone read)

Alright guys. I've been thinking about how to get some pretty numbers from our cars without forced induction. You all know what the lsVtec is right? Well, what if we put the 2zz head on the 1zz block? (thats the GTS head on the GT block). Would this be good? Because of the head, we would have lift, and because of the stroke we would have better torque. What do you think? I know there would have to be some modifications done, but lets start getting detailed here. Put in your 2 cents and if it gets reliable results, maybe I will try it.

Dan
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spaztikid
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spaztikid Jul 27, 7:45pm - #31319 
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hmmmm...good idea. Not sure if it would work though. confused confused
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Street Prototype
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Street Prototype Jul 27, 10:03pm - #31320 

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how about the cams?

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Steven
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Steven Jul 27, 10:06pm - #31321 
2001 Spectra Blue Mica Toyota Celica GTS
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the cams are in the head. I heard that the head and/or block will have to be machined for it to fit. also, you'll need some sort of management for the VVTL-i. I heard this was done in Japan on a MR-S or MR-2, i can't remember. Supposedly they got 240ish crank hp.
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01celi
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01celi Jul 28, 3:58am - #31322 
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sounds like it might work on paper. that would be a good thing to look into. 240hp would be sweet! thumbsup

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VSGTS14
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VSGTS14 Jul 28, 4:05am - #31323 

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how much hp is this going to yield? Estimating...

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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 4:08am - #31324 
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Originally Posted by VSGTS14
how much hp is this going to yield? Estimating...


I couldn't tell you. I think 240 is out of the question. But then with other mods and internal work, like high comp pistons and rods. We would have the power of the GTS in a GT with more torque. I'm thinking that it would be at around 200 give or take, maybe even more. I do not want to get ahead of myself. I need to do more research. Right now this is just brainstorming.
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VSGTS14
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VSGTS14 Jul 28, 4:21am - #31325 

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Originally Posted by Grand-Touring-Dan
Originally Posted by VSGTS14
how much hp is this going to yield? Estimating...


I couldn't tell you. I think 240 is out of the question. But then with other mods and internal work, like high comp pistons and rods. We would have the power of the GTS in a GT with more torque. I'm thinking that it would be at around 200 give or take, maybe even more. I do not want to get ahead of myself. I need to do more research. Right now this is just brainstorming.


so you are basically having a GTS with more torque with more mods that is going to make it expensive? 200 to the wheels?

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My Sixth Gear
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My Sixth Gear Jul 28, 4:22am - #31326 
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sounds really cool... making the GT's scary good research

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GOLDCELICA
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GOLDCELICA Jul 28, 4:24am - #31327 

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anythings possible as long as you have money!

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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 4:25am - #31328 
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Well, for a high performance car, it's not cheap. They somehow I don't know if it would be to the crank or the wheels. Like I said, I do not want to get ahead of myself. I will try some more research in this if anyone is interested in it.

But the GTS has higher comp pistons than us, which is a reason for they more hp, so high comp pistons in this new setup would be very beneficial. The stroke is longer though which is the reason for the torque loss. Have you noticed that a GT and GTS are pretty close in the 1/8. I can beat some GTS' on this board in the 1/8. Does this make sense?
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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 4:26am - #31329 
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Originally Posted by GOLDCELICA
anythings possible as long as you have money!


money and the R&D time. I think that this would be affordable, even cheaper than a turbo. But will take a lot more time and the money will be more for me if I decide to take action. But if I can figure it out so that it works, I think it would be excellent.
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VSGTS14
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VSGTS14 Jul 28, 4:41am - #31330 

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Originally Posted by Grand-Touring-Dan
Originally Posted by GOLDCELICA
anythings possible as long as you have money!


money and the R&D time. I think that this would be affordable, even cheaper than a turbo. But will take a lot more time and the money will be more for me if I decide to take action. But if I can figure it out so that it works, I think it would be excellent.


more reliable than a turbo also.

I think I know what you are talking about though.

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spaztikid
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spaztikid Jul 28, 5:29am - #31331 
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i think it would end up being more than a turbo. You'd need to buy the head, have it installed, get a new ecu(or non existant ecu mod)...all that = mucho deniro
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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 5:38am - #31332 
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Originally Posted by spaztikid
i think it would end up being more than a turbo. You'd need to buy the head, have it installed, get a new ecu(or non existant ecu mod)...all that = mucho deniro


*cough*junkyard*cough*
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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 5:40am - #31333 
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oh, and installing a head is not difficult at all. Plus if I can get some sort of connections with shops and other people, who knows what kinda price we're looking at.
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spaztikid
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spaztikid Jul 28, 5:44am - #31334 
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would lift kick in at the same rpm's as in a gts?
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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 5:50am - #31335 
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Originally Posted by spaztikid
would lift kick in at the same rpm's as in a gts?


Don't know yet. May have to get some kind of FC controller. Much research needs to be done.
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spaztikid
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spaztikid Jul 28, 5:58am - #31336 
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Originally Posted by Grand-Touring-Dan
Originally Posted by spaztikid
would lift kick in at the same rpm's as in a gts?


Don't know yet. May have to get some kind of FC controller. Much research needs to be done.


If this turns out to be feasable and costs less than a turbo i would definately do it.
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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 7:03am - #31337 
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There is a very respectable machine shop in my area that is very good at working with the 1zz motor. I am going to go there soon and talk with them.
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spaztikid
dikitzaps
spaztikid Jul 28, 7:05am - #31338 
dikitzaps
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cool...post new info when you get it. thumbsup
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VSGTS14
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VSGTS14 Jul 28, 3:53pm - #31339 

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Originally Posted by Grand-Touring-Dan
Originally Posted by spaztikid
would lift kick in at the same rpm's as in a gts?


Don't know yet. May have to get some kind of FC controller. Much research needs to be done.


if lift kicked in a lower rpm throughout thre rest of the rpm's...that would be awesome.

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Evan
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Evan Jul 28, 4:30pm - #31340 

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I agree that for the time and money involved you are probably just as well off to buy a turbo for your gt, or just trade it in on a gts

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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 4:35pm - #31341 
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Originally Posted by EvanJ
I agree that for the time and money involved you are probably just as well off to buy a turbo for your gt, or just trade it in on a gts


But if this works, think of how it will change everything for other enthusiasts. I do not mind spending much of my time as long as it will help others. I'm not selfish. We are all on the same team and I'm willing to go the 9 yards.
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Evan
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Evan Jul 28, 4:37pm - #31342 

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Originally Posted by Grand-Touring-Dan
Originally Posted by EvanJ
I agree that for the time and money involved you are probably just as well off to buy a turbo for your gt, or just trade it in on a gts


But if this works, think of how it will change everything for other enthusiasts. I do not mind spending much of my time as long as it will help others. I'm not selfish. We are all on the same team and I'm willing to go the 9 yards.


go for it! thumbsup

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IcEd blUe Jul 28, 5:23pm - #31343 

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damn that sounds soo cool! and for those that say why not just get a turbo...a turbo shortens the lifespan of your car...this doesnt, a few hundred to a $1k isnt much considering your saving your car wink
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XxNavixX
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XxNavixX Jul 28, 8:58pm - #31344 
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Ive done a lot of reading and research in trying to learn a lot about cars as much as possible but i am still a newbie when it comes down to the more complicated stuff so please humor me...how would adding the 2zz head on the GT block add hp? And (you may all laugh now) what does the head do actually? what does it house?
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RicePowered
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RicePowered Jul 28, 8:58pm - #31345 
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Originally Posted by XxNavixX
Ive done a lot of reading and research in trying to learn a lot about cars as much as possible but i am still a newbie when it comes down to the more complicated stuff so please humor me...how would adding the 2zz head on the GT block add hp? And (you may all laugh now) what does the head do actually? what does it house?


no, that is a very good question ... even I don't know the answer to that 100%
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Steven
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Steven Jul 28, 9:07pm - #31346 
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for engine management, I think you'd need an apex'i power fc.
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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 9:15pm - #31347 
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The head contains the valvetrain and the cams. We would have the GTS cams meaning lift. Also the valve train meaning a redline at 8300. Is this helping? Then we would have to have either the ecu or a new management system to control lift. And since the GT stroke is shorter, that means more torque. In Japan they did this to an MR2 and yielded 240 hp. But I cannot find the article, its just something I heard. This is why I do not want to get ahead of myself.

Does that help at all?
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Rice
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Rice Jul 28, 9:29pm - #31348 

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You may want to search the ClubRSX forums too, Dan. There are a few guys experimenting with putting a K24 head(2.4L engine used in TSX, Accord, CRV) on a K20 block (2.0L RSX engine). I assume the results would be similar to what you're talking about with the 'yota zz.
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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 9:35pm - #31349 
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Originally Posted by Rice
You may want to search the ClubRSX forums too, Dan. There are a few guys experimenting with putting a K24 head(2.4L engine used in TSX, Accord, CRV) on a K20 block (2.0L RSX engine). I assume the results would be similar to what you're talking about with the 'yota zz.


Awesome! I belong to that board, but I mainly habg out in the racing forums. DOn't know too much about the RSX performance stuff so I stay out of there. If you could get me a link or something that would be much appreciated.
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Rice
Poopy head
Rice Jul 28, 9:49pm - #31350 

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yeah, I've seen you around ClubRSX. You were the one who told me about this site.

"K24 head install" is one of those topics you just gotta use the search function for, I'm afraid. Sorry I can't give you a more direct link, I never really paid attention to that particular topic.

The site owner's named Chris Dye (forum name K20A2). I believe he's one of the guys experimenting with the K24 hybrid. Also look for the forum name "edo." Edo is the guy who's been doing all the high-dollar experiments with our engine and is treated like a god on that site (and in a lot of RSX circles around the US). Both of these guys are very cool, so you can probably get away with asking technical questions via forum PM. I'm sure they can at least give you some idea of what to expect if/when you do your 1zz/2zz hybrid.
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Grand-Touring-Dan
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Grand-Touring-Dan Jul 28, 9:52pm - #31351 
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Thanks Rice. You seem to enjoy this board. Glad I gave you a good recommendation and got you aboard. You have good input. Thanks for your reply here. I will get on this very soon. I'm getting excited just thinking about it.
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Steven
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Steven Jul 29, 1:37am - #31352 
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Awesome!

Originally Posted by Rice
yeah, I've seen you around ClubRSX. You were the one who told me about this site.

"K24 head install" is one of those topics you just gotta use the search function for, I'm afraid. Sorry I can't give you a more direct link, I never really paid attention to that particular topic.

The site owner's named Chris Dye (forum name K20A2). I believe he's one of the guys experimenting with the K24 hybrid. Also look for the forum name "edo." Edo is the guy who's been doing all the high-dollar experiments with our engine and is treated like a god on that site (and in a lot of RSX circles around the US). Both of these guys are very cool, so you can probably get away with asking technical questions via forum PM. I'm sure they can at least give you some idea of what to expect if/when you do your 1zz/2zz hybrid.
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Rone0seveN
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Rone0seveN Jul 29, 7:58am - #31353 

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Yeah if you need help maybe my friend can help out with technical engine questions??? Just PM me so I can give you his number thumbsup

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cretinx
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cretinx Jul 29, 11:57pm - #31354 
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Is there any way to make lift kick in at lower RPM on the GTS ? Would a power FC do it ? (could you raise the rev limit with it too?)
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redracer311
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redracer311 Aug 4, 9:07pm - #31355 
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I think that you would run into problems doing this. The gts engine has a special feature that comes into play when the VVTL-i kicks in. It sprays more oil on the internals so they are coated better and besides that the pistons are built up better than in the Gt. You can try it, and I want to know if it works but don't be surprised if you find yourself walking.
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Steven
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Steven Aug 4, 9:09pm - #31356 
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yes and yes

Originally Posted by cretinx
Is there any way to make lift kick in at lower RPM on the GTS ? Would a power FC do it ? (could you raise the rev limit with it too?)
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