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e_degala
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e_degala Oct 16, 8:04am - #301099 

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2000 Toyota Celica

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apexi power fc + nitrous?

by implementing an aftermarket engine management system, such as the apexi power fc,and using a more aggressive timing curve instead of the stock ecu, then how will timing be retarded appropriately to accomodate a nitrous system?

has anyone introduced nitrous to the apexi power fc?

also, looking into alternatives to nitrous for use with the apexi power fc i found design engineering inc's "cryo2 system" which utilizes co2 instead of n2o for a mild effect. seems alright for intercooler use but the chilled Intake bulb seems sketchy, anybody heard 'bout this or has reviews on this product?

i welcome your feedback.

e

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Shiftyz1x
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Shiftyz1x Oct 16, 1:21pm - #301100 

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the co2 just cools everything off... n20 oxidises very agressivly, and its freakin cold!!

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Anonymous Oct 16, 2:20pm - #301101 
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I know nothing about the Power FC so I am not even going to pretend. But nitrous I do know about. I don't know how far you are planning on taking this project. On stock internals the highest shot I would go is a 50 (maybe less since you have a GTS). For that you will be fine there is no need to retard the timing. But if you plan on running higher than that you will definatly need to build the engine and switch to a direct port nitrous setup and retard the timing.
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QTRMLR_1
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QTRMLR_1 Oct 16, 6:57pm - #301102 

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^^ why do you say 50 shot is the max you would go?

I get my kicks on EC.
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eddie_725
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eddie_725 Oct 16, 7:40pm - #301103 
1985 Silver Toyota Celica
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^^^ because he knows what he is doing or he has do it spineyes

"if pimpin' is dead then I'm bring it back
mata fact it never died so I take that back" -Lil Wayne-

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Anonymous Oct 16, 8:35pm - #301104 
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Originally Posted by QTRMLR_1
^^ why do you say 50 shot is the max you would go?
Cause on your stock internals if you run more than a fifty say bye bye engine. If you build the engine it can take more of a beating because its stronger. I dont know if I would even dare run a 50 constantly on a GTS. Maybe a 50 every once in a while but 35 when your just messing around.
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QTRMLR_1
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QTRMLR_1 Oct 16, 8:38pm - #301105 

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Originally Posted by eddie_725
^^^ because he knows what he is doing or he has do it spineyes


oh really? So he has run a 50 vs 75 or blown his engine on a 75? Or he has DONE (vs ^^ do) it?

I get my kicks on EC.

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Anonymous Oct 16, 8:42pm - #301106 
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Originally Posted by QTRMLR_1

Originally Posted by eddie_725

^^^ because he knows what he is doing or he has do it spineyes


oh really? So he has run a 50 vs 75 or blown his engine on a 75? Or he has DONE (vs ^^ do) it?
Im sorry I got mad in my first post. 75 is potentially dangerous without a build and will harm your engine
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QTRMLR_1
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QTRMLR_1 Oct 16, 8:55pm - #301107 

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Did you get mad? If you did, I didn't feel it. Next time use the emoticon angry . smile thumbsup

I get my kicks on EC.

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Anonymous Oct 16, 9:00pm - #301108 
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Originally Posted by QTRMLR_1
Did you get mad? If you did, I didn't feel it. Next time use the emoticon angry . smile thumbsup
I had to edit my post. You would of felt the anger if I didn't change it. But seriously a single fogger with 75 shot on a GTS is not good.
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QTRMLR_1
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QTRMLR_1 Oct 16, 10:18pm - #301109 

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e_degala et al., my ensuing statements are NOT recommendations of what you should do. Do only what you think is safe. I take no responsibility for anything you may do or not do correctly, or for anything that may happen. I am merely reporting what others have done and what I plan to do:

I have knowledge of someone in Michigan with a GTS running a 75 NX shot with the PowerFC at the track with no problems. He runs the highest octane he can get, uses two degrees colder spark plugs, uses one step higher fuel jet than what NX recommends, and has the PowerFC tuned halfway between street use and track use (since he doesn't have the backordered Datalogit to switch back and forth between maps).
The result is 13.6 s at 104 mph at 900 feet elevation, and he claims he is not driving the car to its full potential. I can see a perfectly driven car with nitrous-tuned PFC, and nitrous kit (duh), hit 12.9-13.2 at sea level (depending on the extent of other modifications, weight reduction, fw, super lightweight rims etc).

The advantage of the PFC over the stock ecu, is that the ignition timing can be retarded to reduce knock to acceptable levels (depends on the individual). Also the A/F ratio can be adjusted to run richer to play on the side of safety.

Detonation is the primary cause of engine damage from nitrous. The PFC with Commander or Datalogit can monitor detonation/knock level. If you make the correct preparations, it is my opinion that 75 shot is safe even with the NX kit, which is rated at the wheels. Other kits are theoretically safer since they are rated at the crank.

I know of someone in SoCal with a GTS who ran a NX 75 shot w/o PFC and took the necessary precautions to run with no problems. He ran a 13.716 s at 99.89 mph at 1200 ft at California Speedway. He did not retard his ignition timing. With PFC and at sea level that time would have been much better. I wrote that he "ran nitrous" because he runs a stafford turbo now. I have a video of the above person running with nitrous, and that video is a part of Lucky_317's video collection.

Both of the above persons used a Mallory window switch.

I plan on tuning my PFC for use with Zex kit once I get the Datalogit. I will be using 100 octane fuel, two heat ranges colder spark plugs, and retarded ignition timing. I have a Mallory window switch and the two individuals mentioned above have instructed me on how to wire it with my nitrous kit (the one with the PFC is a pro auto electrician). I will dyno-tune cautiously at first and build until right before I reach the knock level I am willing to tolerate. I believe that a 100 shot would likely blow a stock motor at some point. I wouldn't do anything I think may blow my engine, so I will run a Zex 75 with tuned PFC and ALL of the mandatory precautions. Even with 11.5:1 compression on the GTS, I believe 75 is safe if done right.

I believe 99% of the people who have blown their engines with nitrous, across all makes and models have done so b/c: 1)they didn't follow directions which may include 2) not using higher than premium gas 3) not using 2 heat ranges colder spark plugs 4) not retarding ignition timing 4) running lean b/c of problems they had prior the nitrous install (Intake causing lean code, problems with fuel system, etc) 5) hitting the rev limiter with nitrous on 6) running the nitrous too long 7) running with too hot a bottle 8) trying to run too big of a shot for their motor 9)and of course...trying to run nitrous period on a cheap car with a cheap engine, and other ignorant acts...
The 1% may include individuals who should have had a sturdy engine but got a defective engine from the factory, or other dumb things like poor maintenance, e.g. low motor oil which would blow a N/A engine. And other random stuff they blame on the nitrous: like running an aftermarket crank pulley (but let's not get into that, that's another discussion).

I thought I would share what EXPERIENCED people have encountered, as opposed to hearsay (which may include individuals who did foolish acts).

Spray Smart. thumbsup

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e_degala
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e_degala Oct 16, 11:21pm - #301110 

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northeast
qtrmlr_1 your response was quite informative. thank you for your reply.

planned on going with i/h/e, fidanza flywheel, act hd street clutch, higher compression pistons (12:0:1), msd ignition, high flow fuel pump, and apexi power fc.

i was hoping to later implement a zex system also but was hesitant over safety and durability (adding sleeves, valve springs, and valves is very costly). mostly, i was unsure 'bout how the apexi unit would react to this daily driven vehicle with zex used occasionally for the track. i wanted to have it tuned for maximum power naturally aspirated but adding nitrous also if possible...

e

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Anonymous Oct 16, 11:27pm - #301111 
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true what qtrmlr_1 said. Taken the proper percautions 75 can/will work. My answers we based on stock everything, with pump fuel, and 75 shot. Like I said before i know nothing of the Power FC but I do know the fact that it is not emissions legal and that is pretty much the limit of my knowledge.
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QTRMLR_1
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QTRMLR_1 Oct 16, 11:45pm - #301112 

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Originally Posted by e_degala
qtrmlr_1 your response was quite informative. thank you for your reply.

planned on going with i/h/e, fidanza flywheel, act hd street clutch, higher compression pistons (12:0:1), msd ignition, high flow fuel pump, and apexi power fc.

i was hoping to later implement a zex system also but was hesitant over safety and durability (adding sleeves, valve springs, and valves is very costly). mostly, i was unsure 'bout how the apexi unit would react to this daily driven vehicle with zex used occasionally for the track. i wanted to have it tuned for maximum power naturally aspirated but adding nitrous also if possible...

e


you're welcome. glad I could help.

definitely do not go higher than stock compression if you plan on nitrous. I wouldn't go higher than stock compression N/A unless you build your engine, as I assume you still want to run on pump gas N/A.

sleeves are not necessary unless you are spraying 100 and up and at this time you should be going direct port w/ progressive nitrous controller (go NX). throw in forged pistons, connecting rods. "easy" 300 whp with proper tuning.

valves and valve springs are a good idea N/A with the PFC since the PFC from Monkeywrenchracing comes with a higher rev limit 8600 currently.

I did an extensive writeup of the GReddy e-manage vs PowerFC awhile ago. If you do a search you should be able to find it. I go over a lot of issues. The PFC is not emissions legal, but if tuned right for the street will not hurt the environment any more than the stock ecu. If you need to pass smog, it takes 2 minutes to switch between the stock ecu and the PFC.

I get my kicks on EC.
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