Celica Forums General Discussion Engine and Performance Trial vs DC sports Header dyno shoot out results. (read this)

OK so now that my stupid car is running again I got to Dyno the DC Sports header.

stupid scanner is being retarded so heres the text version.

**NOTE: This is done on a MUSTANG DYNO not a dyno jet so ignore the numbers and look at the gains. (typical 6% loss due to the 2782lbs load the cars were put under.**

Stock ECU/I/E

170.8 whp @ 8000 rpms
119.1 wtq @ 7000 rpms

Stock ECU/I/E/DC Sports Header

170.5 whp @ 7750 rpms
121.4 wtq @ 7000 rpms

Result - DC made basically same hp only sooner and made 2.3 wtq more.

Now For the Trial Header vs DC Sports Header comparison

00silvergts6spd/ DC Sports

170.5 whp @ 7750 rpms
121.4 wtq @ 7000 rpms

N/A2zz/Trial Header

171.4 whp @ 8250 rpm
119.0 wtq @ 7000 rpm

**The first trial dyno was pretty bad so we used run # 2. DC only got 1 run so we didnt have much choices lol**

From 5300 rpms - 8000 rpms DC > Trial

at 6725 rpms DC > trial by about 15 hp and 15 tq

from 2000 - 5300 the graphs were identical. but trial stops going up and dc doesnt. then trial spikes a lil higher at the end of the run.


My conclusion TPR better get some good gains or we're screwed. Also FYI DC header did better with the power fc. not gonna talk about those numbers though cause we were tuning the trial but not the dc. (was not my tuning day) I just squeezed in 3 runs after we finished his car.

FYI 6% less then a dynojet = a 10HP difference.

Interesting , so wats the point of getting headers?

right now? apparently nothing. unless you make it your only mod lol in which case you're lookin 10 hp over stock lol but who does that?

also dont worry cause this info has been forwarded to R&D people over at DC. Not that they will fix anything. but just wanna let you know that they will know the problem

sweet..thanks for the info..wontbe buying dc header then

wow good info lucky

Unfortunately I was the last person on the planet to get the DC header thanx to DC's lack of follow through. So, I couldn't post these dynos until now.


so far TPR is about the last hope now. if they cant make better power we're screwed

go TPR get something going

yeah TPR(blue and easyc) please make a great header!


one that will fit the GT and GTS

...header header header header...tpr(gts>03-04)

good info dude!!!
anybody have any numbers on hotshot...

doesnt hotshot only do GT's?? so you can rest assured I'll never have that info

mike...those results are hurtin'...can you scan them up so we can see the power curves?

i think they do

^^ hey bro, sorry I missed ya when you came down. I think it was your fault my car died since I was planning on drivin all the way out there lol

so dc gains 10hp w/ out mods but with mods it has no gains? and same for trial???

so DC is better than Trial

yep

they both stink with those numbers

valuable info, mike..thanks for doing the runs

kinda sucks to look at the #'s though...you would think exhaust & intake would slightly improve the header numbers by removing bottlenecks but according to these runs that isn't the case at all. that's kind of curious..i'll definately have to see how tpr does...hopefully that's better but if companies like trial and dc motorsports can't do it, i'd still be skeptical about another company topping them. i guess i/e people will have to start experimenting with custom headers.

oh, and i actually like the mustang dyno better..i like load bearing settings but that could just be me.

The difference with the TPR header is that it's a TRUE 4-2-1 design. It's nothing like stock, Trial, DC, or TRD. It will look very similar to this:



That's a Toda header for the RSX-S.

^^ thanks for the headsup. i'll definately be checking the dyno #'s on this...and i'd also love to see how it does with intake/exhaust since the above #'s seem to show virtually no gain and slightly more torque.

will your 4-2-1 design really be that different in length though? also, if i remember right, dc motorsports initial header designs were to be 4-2-1 but the wound up going 4-1 instead (like trial and trd)...i don't know for a fact but i would assume they changed to this because the gains were better.

a lot remains to be seen though, and i'm hoping trp pulls though with a header that does well with intake/exhaust...because i really don't know anyone who runs around with just a header. virtually every case i've seen with a car using a header also had at least an intake and exhaust. (obviously this has to do with installation ease & cost..but the point remains)

Yes, it should be about that long, maybe a few inches shorter, maybe a few inches longer (not sure how long the final collector will be, or how long the Toda header is). TRD/Trial/DC made their headers like OEM most likely for sales and CARB approval. It's much easier and cheaper to just install a replacement header, and it cuts down on design research, since all those companies really did was use larger piping and smoother bends while sticking to the same design as stock (TRD even used a stock header flange). It also keeps owners from having to modify their midpipe (and altering the stock cat [CARB part of the equation]), which would attract more customers than a header that needed custom work. TPR has taken it a step further by offering a midpipe, including a CARB approved replacement cat and high flow resonator, that fits their header to solve the problem. This does not make the midpipe CARB certified, but it is legal to replace your cat with it after a certain amount of miles or years, depending on your state.

BTW, the stock header is actually a kind of 4-2-1 design (called a theta pipe), but instead of using individual pipes for the secondaries, they just put a divider plate down the middle of the collector and down a bit of the midpipe to simulate a true 4-2-1 design. Toyota claims it was to get the cat to heat up faster on cold startup, but I've been told by a header designer that that's BS, and it was just done to reduce production costs (which is totally believable).

good points.

i live in louisiana and needless to say we don't have CARB and emissions tests are practically NEVER enforced. (cops and brake tag stations usually only enforce exhaust decibel levels). i'd like to see a header that uses a midpipe without the cat and see what type of gains that would give.

Is the TRP header going to be a bolt on?

Pretty much. If you use the TPR midpipe (sold with the TPR header), it's completely bolt on. If you choose to use your stock midpipe, you'll need a muffler shop to shorten it a bit to fit with the header, and add a different flange to connect to the header.

if i buy the headers and the midpipe with the cat will i pass the sniffer, i live in cali by the way. i can pass visual, the most important to me is the sniffer, thanks and keep up the good work

Yeah, there's a very good chance it will. The cat is OBDII compliant and CARB approved as an OEM replacement, which means it's fully compatible with all emissions equipment, and should perform just as well as the OEM cat.

hey bomber, is this going to stainless or coated???

yeah the biggest diff is the design. DC/trd/trial didnt really do any design work. they took stock design and made the pipes bigger. thst style header is going to be as good as it gets. so if it doesnt do well there is no hope.

this really makes me sad because i dont want to put a turbo or a supercharger on my gt, but i was hoping that with simple air flow mods (header, exauhst, intake) i could at least get 140whp. i guess ill just have to spend it on looks instead of performance...or wait til a turbo isnt 3500 dollars..if that ever happens

that wont ever happen lol I'm just glad I got it for free

It's planned to be both. Stainless steel, plus ceramic coating.

cant wait

Keep us posted. Good info. Thanks.

What is TPR's website address?

No site is up yet for TPR. It'll be up soon, probably when the intake is re-released. For now, you can either PM Easy_C to buy CAIs and exhausts (and eventually the header), or go to the Group Buy forum of New[/b]Celica[b].org and sign up.

omg i cant wait

the headers that come with the xs turbo, how good are they or could they safley be replaced?

^^ "header" (sing.)
who cares how good a turbo header is when you have the power of a turbo...haha j/k

it's ok to ask but most people who are concerned with bolt-on performance only have N/A cars. Nothing wrong with N/A, it's just weak unless you have the Elise-like weight or the money to make 300+ whp like the NHRA Sport Compact All-Motor Pros.

TPR is planning on a N/A race header. Ask for a turbo version and maybe they will make it.

This is really nice info, but where are the graphs? It's one thing that your only concerned about peak numbers, its another not to post plots comparing the three runs. I want to see the power curve. I want to see the low/midrange power the three runs made. And the torque and a/f ratio. Maybe the a/f is not at optimal point and can be tuned for more power? But graphs would be nice.

the stock graph was the best over all graph. the A/f ratios werent printed but were the same on all the graphs.
with tuning I can bvring a lot more power in but thats not what the purpose of this was lol.

hello

hello

um wrong place for an introduction lol try the newbies forum

lol hello. any idea how much longer for tpr header? i'm very interested

^^again not the right thread to ask. it's not even produced or prototyped yet.

what seems to be the problem? Any design shoudl give more power than wahts on there. and the shorty design is for torque so expect the new header from tpr to be MUCH better for horse but probably worse for tq (maybe worse than stock) so what matters to you? the DC offers good gains throughout the band Peak hp is useless you guys. dont look at the header and say omg it only gains 10 hp. Look at the graphs (elsewhere.. and no i dont have a link)

^^ it didnt get gains all over the band and it didnt get 10 peak. it lost most of the band and was a tad lower on peak. thats I/E vs I/H/E

oo sorry i thot they were already making it haha

Good info. Thanks for posting

Dyno graphs please...

Do any of you guys run hi-flo cats with your exhuast setup? In my opinion a full exhaust setup isn't complete until a hi-flo cat is introduced. So the pattern would be header--> hi-flo cat --> exhuast.

Ok im jumping in here
I just got the apex-i chip, AEM intake, DC header and Apex-i exhaust. Now, I didnt get the maps from MWR like an idiot, so i was wondering, does the chip come with a base map so you can at least run the car? Or do i need to find a map to upload on the chip?

It does, but it is worthless. Almost no gains at all.

ok so how long does it take to tune it from a base map

for the GTS the power FC does NOT include a map. you cant run the car from it. I would suggest getting MWR to put a map on for you if you bought it from them.

to get a good solid tune for full throttle and partial throttle making the most power the safest way you can, count on 6 hours of dyno time. assuming the people you take it to know what they are doing. which sadly most shops dont.

Well, how can i tell if the shop knows what they are doing? Do they have to train for the dyno in order to be able to use it, like, will they have a "shiny" certificate to prove they are qualified to use the equipment? And how much does it tend to cost/hour for dyno time?

On MWR's website it says that it DOES include a base map. They had dyno'd the car with the base map and then with there map. Check it out.

Ok, this is quoted from there site:

"Compared to the stock program in the Power FC, well, there is no comparison. Even on Japanese 98 octane the stock program would suck. It produced lots of knock and something like 140whp on our shop Celica with the Injen, and similar results without the Injen. We have always recommended customers get these tuned before driving on the street with them. The stock 1zz PFC program is much better, but still not great."

Well, i just talked to a guy named Matt that works at MWR per e-mail : The car will start and run but at WOT it will knock. Sorry, no English instructions available.

Matt @ Monkeywrench

http://www.monkeywrenchracing.com

ph: 248-624-9820

fax: 248-479-0775

that was a copy and paste move...

Why does it suck so much, wouldnt they make it at least like the stock ecu so it wouldnt knock?

Because I think they were thinking about it for JDM gas. Like 98+ octane.

you DO NOT want to run the car like that.

"It produced lots of knock and something like 140whp"

if you do that to your engine you're just beggin for trouble. it does NOT have a proper 2zz map preloaded. but like I've said before I'm not a professional so don't take my advice if ya dont like it.

who would run a ecu without at least a pre loaded program and no tuning?

From the looks of it the SVT focus and the GTS are in the same boat when it comes to what they can do on the exhaust end...

both are estimated 170 w/ 6 speed trannys, but the ability to upgrade is not there as with the base models, Cosworth which makes the stock header and exhaust for the SVT is so big enough as it is, putting aftermarket pipes is just not worth the money, there is not enough tuning options for the focus ( and seems to be celica aswell ) to beable to change a lot with the "Super" models, as they were.

Its kinda sad when you think of how littly tuned these cars are, which have such great potential, you take a civic, 700 fwhp? give me a break, 1 day the celica and others will catch up with the much more fortunate

drew

wow youre a lil off base there. the focus is rated at 170 yes celica 180. the celica is far better then that crappy focus. our problem is lack of aftermarket support. the engin e can gain the power if someone makes it

What its "rated" and what it has are also 2 different things

okay lucky this one is for you
went to the dyno last night for about 6 hours
we played around with the power fc to make sure a/f ratio was cool and it was
so the tuner decided to mess around with the engagement of vvtli and decided to set it at 5700 rpms,
as you know this resulted in about a 5 hp dip below baseline
but at 5800 rpms i was up almost 20hp over baseline
right now i have a pfc/i/e 176.4whp and 128.7wtq sae corrected and 182whp and 132wtq actual
what i was wondering would a trial header increase the tunablility so that i may see 180-185ish peak whp

I talked with MWR yesterday and they said they didnt think it was not a good idea to lower the 6k rpm lift spot because of loss of power, and you are saying you picked up 20 hp over baseline @ 5800? Did you keep your lift at 5700 or did you put it back to 6k?

Let me know how that works cause im sending my chip back to MWR to get it tuned so i have at least something on it.Matt @ MWR said that the best thing to do was to just raise the rev limiter to like 85k or 86k (since i cant stay in lift btw the 1-2 shift).

you will need a ton of tuning on the trial header to get back up to your power level your at now. trust me i know.

i know, the horsepower dipped about 5 hp right before the cam changeover (because there was gonna be a cam angle change before lift) then had almost a 20 hp difference betweent the base line tune at 5800 rpm and holds about a 3 hp difference throughout the rest of the powerband.
damn i wish i had a scanner
thanx illusive for the response
p.s. lift still hits at 5700

also i want to see more power.if a header isnt the way to go whats next, besides t/c s/c and nitrous

only thing you can do now, is

get a tank of 100 octaine in and go retune with 100 octain for a "race" map,
also you may want to get an 02 dump and have it welded to just after the first 02 sensor(have it dump before the cat), and retune with the 100 octain and 0 restriction exhaust for maximum lift wot gains.

thats about all there is for go fast mods n/a in terms of power adders,

only route left is stroker kit, which is big bucks.

is that how lucky got to 184whp?

i hope the tpr header comes out soon

I have put down 184 on 91 octane. the torque did drop a bit though.

havent done any tuning since the dc header so I'm sitting at only 172 whp right now and 119 wtq. that was 91 octane.

you can raise your compression but thats gonna be big $$ when you count tuning and the cost of higher octane gas.

of course your going to get less gains with more mods on header

you can open things up too much with stock power and lose back pressure and power

the extremity would be to just poke holes in your engine for it to breathe

that wouldnt be good for power

im not bein sarcastic or rude just tryin to make the point obvious that you need a certain amount of backpressure for different amounts of power

you will see more power curving gains with more mods when you have headers and such as a pose to stock

i hope i explained myself well

not really cause thats backwards from what the results were.

more mods the less power it got. the less mods the more power it made lol.

im using 93 octane and i know i can make more power
the guy that tuned my shit, only changed the valve angles
i feel if he played with the ignition timing or a/f ratio,i'd be making more power
p.s. i also think if he used a bigger fan i would have gotten bigger numbers

Question?

I have a dc headers in my gts. I think i lost torqe and horsepower because of the dc headers. The only mods i have is intake and the dc headers. My drag time was 15.2 with injen intake, wings west uritane full. Now im going 15.5 with the dc headers, without body kit.

Is it hard to believe that i bougth the headers to loss hp and torqe or bought it for nothing and waste money

you might've just had some bad launches. I don;t think you would lose enough power to make a .3 second difference.

if you wanna post the #'s off the slips of both runs I can try to help ya sort through it.

hmm...what about those midnight performance headers... i want an N/A car so could these guys be a possitive possibility? they are selling @ around 1k so yeah it puts a huge hole in your wallet...anyways here is the link.

http://midnightperformance.com/header.htm

I wouldn't believe anything till I see a dyno. What they claim (15hp) is probably from a stock celica, just like how DC claim a 11 hp from their header! But if your car is modified with aftermarket intake and exhaust, I'm pretty sure the gains won't be that impressive!

yup what he said.

doesnt brashboy make race header for our cars?

yeah they do but we need to see some a dynos...thats kinda the point...