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Joined: May 2003
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Jae
Senior Member
Jae Jul 30, 10:01am - #236177 

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2001 Toyota Celica

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 583
palm springs, burbank CA
downside to power FC?

i was wondering,
if you tune your power fc to where mike is at. Would that kill the engine really bad?
i mean stock is made so that it will last long.
But engine life will be shorter if you try to get all the juice out of the engine, right?
So is power fc safe and reliable? and how long would the engine lasts?
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QTRMLR_1
Specialist
QTRMLR_1 Jul 30, 10:42am - #236178 

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Los Angeles, CA
Ahhh...it's 3 am and Mike's sleepin...not part of the ecelica insomniacs... happywink

I get my kicks on EC.
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QTRMLR_1
Specialist
QTRMLR_1 Jul 30, 10:48am - #236179 

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Posts: 1,376
Los Angeles, CA
^^ I'll tell you after I hardcore tune my GTS with the PFC and whether my engine blows or not...ok? hahaha. It's sure expensive...a grand for the PFC, $350 for software, $300-$400 to tune one time (you should tune after each time you upgrade!!!) I'd say it would be better to learn how to do it, get the tools like an A/F meter and logger and do it yourself. Even if you use someone's dyno at least you don't have to pay someone to tune and punch in numbers.

I get my kicks on EC.
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QTRMLR_1
Specialist
QTRMLR_1 Jul 30, 11:16am - #236180 

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Los Angeles, CA
My Lucky Disclaimer:

This is just opinion not experience--(so when Mike wakes up he won't blame me for confusing everyone hehehe), so read with caution. grin

First of all, you can screw anything up if you don't know what you're doing. So if you don't know what you are doing, have a professional with a good reputation work on tuning your PFC.

We are not increasing the static compression ratio nor we are increasing the stroke of the engine here, so I don't see why any damage would be done. About the rev limit, 8600 is not that bad since the stock is 8350. You won't go all the way to 8600 anyway, more like 8500 if you shift perfectly. So in operation it's only 150 rpm higher than the stock limit, and you won't be staying there long at all. Of course if you use cheap petroleum motor oil at 8500 you're just asking for trouble. Use RedLine Full Synthetic or Royal Purple.
If anything the PFC prolongs the life of your engine because it measures and reports knock level, so you can adjust your A/F ratios accordingly to keep your engine safe. What's bad for your engine is putting on a high flow Intake and exhaust, running lean and expecting your stock ecu to compensate for it which it does a bad job of.
On ignition timing, until you know what you are doing don't touch it and your engine will be fine. If you use nitrous you might want to retard it, but one person who ran a 13.716 s 1/4 mi at 1200 ft with NX 75 shot does not retard timing--just uses colder plugs...so do whatever you think is safe.
On valve timing: Again don't touch it until you've been trained. You're basically adjusting the timing of the Intake valves to allow the engine to breathe better esp at higher rpms so you can get more air in the cylinders. Of course if you allow too much air in, your dynamic compression would be too high and that could cause detonation if your octane level of your gas is not high enough, or if you subsequently did not add more gas for the more air.

So basically: You can get the PFC and see great gains and your engine will still be safe. You don't have to mess with everything until you're ready. Adjusting fuel injection through monitoring A/F rato is where you should start, and as long as you aren't running lean, and causing knock, you should be fine.

Now did that hurt anyone??? I hope not...

I get my kicks on EC.
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Speed4TheNeed
Caleb
Speed4TheNeed Jul 30, 11:34am - #236181 

Caleb
2000 Toyota Celica

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 6,372
New Orleans, LA
yes--if you squeeze every bit of power than you can out of your cars engine, it will wear faster.

but that doesnt mean you have to make it work like that. retuning your ecu is really good after you put Performance parts on your car such as an Intake, header, exhaust, etc.

whenever you just bolt on parts like this, your car does NOT take full potential of it because it doesn't fully recognize the Performance parts capacities because it's used to dealing with stock #'s.

retuning your ecu in these cases can take full advantage of your products capabilities and add more power WITHOUT wearing your engine anymore than what is normal. thumbsup
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Posts: 396
Illusive
Member
Illusive Jul 30, 8:12pm - #236182 
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Posts: 396
Southern California
anytime you add power to any engine you decrease the life of the engine.

its manufactured for specific tolerances at specific power levels, and we all here change that when we add Intakes, exhausts ect.

so yes it will decrease engine life. by how much no one knows.

having said that, you can tune the pfc to be more safe than your stock ecu, but not completely better for handling unknown situations.

the stock ecu has several correctional factors built into it for different situations such as horrid gas and ungodly retarding of the Intake timing to not blow up your engine from knock, pfc cant compensate for that, but it will visually notify you via 3 quick flashes on the check engine light that your knocking, anyone with common sense who sees this knock will then reduce the amount of ignition timing or adjust the vvt map to compensate for the differences, and save the map.

in addition, the stock ecu runs dangerously lean at wot, with i/h/e. we are talking as high as 17-1 a/f ratio from 3K-6Krpms, and as lean as 15-1 in lift.

stock ecu doesn't seem to compensate well with i/h/e.

with the pfc we have our teams pfc's set to 13-1 a/f ratio for daily driving and have a 14-1 a/f ratio for 100 octaine race fuel map for the tracks.

Controlled Inertia
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Jae
Senior Member
Jae Jul 30, 10:46pm - #236183 

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2001 Toyota Celica

Joined: May 2003
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palm springs, burbank CA
i guess that answer the questions.
so can i get one for my auto?
im asking you this because, the blitz compressor from trial comes with pfc with both auto and stick.
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Illusive
Member
Illusive Jul 30, 10:55pm - #236184 
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 396
Southern California
Originally Posted by Jae
i guess that answer the questions.
so can i get one for my auto?
im asking you this because, the blitz compressor from trial comes with pfc with both auto and stick.


not confirmed that it will work on auto, rumors are that the triptronic shifter no longer will work, and that it will disable overdrive

Controlled Inertia
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8.831 @ 79.8 mph (best 1/8 new motor 12/02/04)
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QTRMLR_1
Specialist
QTRMLR_1 Jul 31, 12:48am - #236185 

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Posts: 1,376
Los Angeles, CA
Illusive:
"anytime you add power to any engine you decrease the life of the engine."

That is quite a general statement. I will admit that adding any power mods to any engine does put more stress on the engine. But I don't think the engine life will necessarily be decreased. The real question is whether the engine can handle the stress. Although some economy cars from other brands might not be able to handle a power increase, I believe our race celica comes underpowered from the factory compared to what the engine can handle. It is dumbed down to meet strict emissions regulations. But I don't believe the engine is weaker rather the air allowed in and the air allowed out is restricted. Compare this to a human being which is nothing more than a biochemical engine. A human has great potential as he has been designed that way. A human training for and running a marathon will put more stress on the human as he must breathe more air and exhale more to create more power. But will this decrease the life of the human. I don't think so. Of course you can kill yourself with too much. But my point is that adding "any" power mods does not necessarily mean you will decrease the life of the engine.
So, is it possible for an engine to handle a stress to the point where its life is not diminished? I believe the answer to that question is yes.

I get my kicks on EC.
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Posts: 396
Illusive
Member
Illusive Jul 31, 6:14am - #236186 
Member

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 396
Southern California
Originally Posted by QTRMLR_1
Illusive:
"anytime you add power to any engine you decrease the life of the engine."

That is quite a general statement. I will admit that adding any power mods to any engine does put more stress on the engine. But I don't think the engine life will necessarily be decreased. The real question is whether the engine can handle the stress. Although some economy cars from other brands might not be able to handle a power increase, I believe our race celica comes underpowered from the factory compared to what the engine can handle. It is dumbed down to meet strict emissions regulations. But I don't believe the engine is weaker rather the air allowed in and the air allowed out is restricted. Compare this to a human being which is nothing more than a biochemical engine. A human has great potential as he has been designed that way. A human training for and running a marathon will put more stress on the human as he must breathe more air and exhale more to create more power. But will this decrease the life of the human. I don't think so. Of course you can kill yourself with too much. But my point is that adding "any" power mods does not necessarily mean you will decrease the life of the engine.
So, is it possible for an engine to handle a stress to the point where its life is not diminished? I believe the answer to that question is yes.


granted that was a very general statement but it takes generalizations like that for stuff to sink in on the web here.

at any rate manufactuers usually build in some slack to certain stressed and wear components to engines. But quite a bit of R&D is put into these cars when they are designed, and adding 10whp and or 10wtq, and upping the rev limiter causes "unforseen" outcomes that were probably never engineered for.

Controlled Inertia
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8.831 @ 79.8 mph (best 1/8 new motor 12/02/04)
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QTRMLR_1
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QTRMLR_1 Jul 31, 10:08am - #236187 

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2002 Toyota Celica

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Posts: 1,376
Los Angeles, CA
^^ in the case of the of the celica I believe there is a huge amount of slack in the US spec celica designed to meet emissions regs. Just look at the European versions and the ones in Japan...their ecus are tuned differently for more stock power and I don't think the lifespan of their engines is any less than ours. You can be sure they drive the celicas pretty hard in Japan too! I do know that when you start getting more agressive with the power increases, you have to increase the specs of the car to prepare it for the greater stress. For example forged pistons, better rods, block sleeves, valve springs, etc. If you prep for large power increases, I don't think there will be a significant decrease in engine life. What is "engine life" anyway? All serious engine builders have basically replaced most of the parts in their engine so the term engine life is kind of irrelevant. Unless you mean a new block or cylinder which isn't that much. I have found where I can get GTS cylinder heads for $250 (I need an extra when I port 'n' polish). I can get a GTS engine block for $300. IMO those "unforseen" outcomes which often occur are the result of an over-ambitious racer that didn't plan ahead and be an engine builder as well.

I get my kicks on EC.
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