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  exhaust facts and miss understandings
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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953427036 5 Years ago  

since im really strarting to get sick of all these damn exhaust threads asking the same thing and getting the same anwesers that in most case's are wrong i figured i would make this

1 back pressure is bs most stock exhaust sytems don't even have 1 psi of pressure in them

2 if you would like to go for a dual exhaust go for it the only way it will hurt preformance is weight and if you made it a dual exhaust from the header back (2 cats 2 pipes all the way back) and only reason that hurts preformance is becuase heat

3 "a 2.5 inch exhaust is bad and can hurt the engine" WRONG you could go to a damn 5 inch exhaust but there wil be a preformance decrease casue the exhaust gas's flow better when there hot (cold air is mroe dense) on na 2.5 inch is prefectly fine


4 "mufflers make hp" wrong mufflers don't "make" hp for pure gains the best muffler is no muffler

5 "turbo exhaust is hotter" wrong again exhaust temp is raised lowered by timing air/fuel ratio and spark the turbo hanging off the header doesn't make a diffrence on exhaust temp


would be nice if someone sticked this cause if i see one more person blab about back pressure im gonna snap
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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StuntPanda
Melanie

 Post # 1953427059 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by drkramm:

2 if you would like to go for a dual exhaust go for it the only way it will hurt preformance is weight and if you made it a dual exhaust from the header back (2 cats 2 pipes all the way back) and only reason that hurts preformance is becuase heat



if you have a celica, there's no reason for a dual exhaust, whether it's a Y pipe with two tips, or a "true" dual system. BTW, there is no WAY you can put a true dual system on a celica.
a) It's a 4 cylender car. it doesn't need it.
b) there's no room under the car to run two pipes anyway. the best you could do is run one pipe in the stock location and run a Y pipe from the axle back. Even then, it's pointless for the motor.It won't help power gains at all. The only way I'd put dual tips on my celica is for show only.

just my two cents.
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: VAN NUYS, CA

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celicadragon
doug

2002 absolutely red celica gt-s
 Post # 1953427153 5 Years ago  

for anyone that knows about a celica dual exhaust is pointless and harmful to performance due to the weight of the extra piping
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953427156 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by StuntPanda:
Quote:
Originally posted by drkramm:

2 if you would like to go for a dual exhaust go for it the only way it will hurt preformance is weight and if you made it a dual exhaust from the header back (2 cats 2 pipes all the way back) and only reason that hurts preformance is becuase heat



if you have a celica, there's no reason for a dual exhaust, whether it's a Y pipe with two tips, or a "true" dual system. BTW, there is no WAY you can put a true dual system on a celica.
a) It's a 4 cylender car. it doesn't need it.
b) there's no room under the car to run two pipes anyway. the best you could do is run one pipe in the stock location and run a Y pipe from the axle back. Even then, it's pointless for the motor.It won't help power gains at all. The only way I'd put dual tips on my celica is for show only.

just my two cents.


i said header not headers which would indicate a y pipe and what i said apprently wasn't clear enough for you
i said dual after thte header (with a y) would hurt preformance.
now as for axel back there will be a preformance gain cause its still letting the gas flow smoother

i never said it needed it i said if you want to do it go for it as long as its axel back there will be some performace boost (over the stock system)

if someone wanted to run a duel setup after the header they would find away the trd super doesn't fit the gts but people found a way to mount it
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953427160 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by celicadragon:
for anyone that knows about a celica dual exhaust is pointless and harmful to performance due to the weight of the extra piping


i will be willing to walk down take the stock exhaust back of my car and weigh it then compare it to the weight of a 3 feet of pipe or hell even my tshm compared to a couple feet of pipe
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953427182 5 Years ago  

2 feet of 2.5 inch piping from my old ramcharger weighs around 4 pounds so lets say you need 4 feet thats 8 pounds anyone who has handeld an exhaust knows that no aftermarket exhaust weighs less then that

except of course the titainum one which is like 7 pounds

my tshm is a hair over 20 on same scale

i think its listed as 21

This post has been edited by drkramm: 5 Years ago
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953427190 5 Years ago  

tshm on same scale was a hair over 20 ( listed as 21 i belive)
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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StuntPanda
Melanie

 Post # 1953427294 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by drkramm:

i said header not headers which would indicate a y pipe and what i said apprently wasn't clear enough for you
i said dual after thte header (with a y) would hurt preformance.

if someone wanted to run a duel setup after the header they would find away the trd super doesn't fit the gts but people found a way to mount it


ok. dual system after the header is not possible on the celica. it would involve ridiculous amounts of money to change the underside of the car to be able to handle that much piping. if you look under the car, ther is room for a 3" pipe (more or less) after the cat. if you wanted to put a Y pipe around the axle area, there's room for that, and i'm sure that's been done before. but neither will help performance.
the best exhaust for the celica n/a is probably a 2 1/2" system with a high flow cat and a decent muffler.
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: VAN NUYS, CA

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tonyAdministrator


2000 Liquid Silver Celica GT
 Post # 1953427298 5 Years ago  

Best muffler is no muffler - agreed. but, not street legal.

There is no reason for dual exhaust on a Celica - also agreed. Dual exhaust on a 4-banger is gay, IMHO. But, it does fit the "looks fast" image that freakin' Toyota gave to the poor Celica. (Those idiots at the ad agency that came up with the slogan need to be shot.)
Joined: 8 Years ago · From: Los Angeles, CA

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953427743 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by StuntPanda:
ok. dual system after the header is not possible on the celica. it would involve ridiculous amounts of money to change the underside of the car to be able to handle that much piping. if you look under the car, ther is room for a 3" pipe (more or less) after the cat. if you wanted to put a Y pipe around the axle area, there's room for that, and i'm sure that's been done before. but neither will help performance.
the best exhaust for the celica n/a is probably a 2 1/2" system with a high flow cat and a decent muffler.


so that means its impossable ? no like i said it may take alot of money but if someone wanted to do it they could

nothing is imposasble with the right anoutn of money

(ultimate celica 500hp awd ? thought that was impossable)

and what about the kazuma exhaust it has the higest gains of any exhaust and has no muffler (well a resonter but thats the size of a coke can)
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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celicatuner


2002 silver celica gt-s
 Post # 1953427872 5 Years ago  

"5 "turbo exhaust is hotter" wrong again exhaust temp is raised lowered by timing air/fuel ratio and spark the turbo hanging off the header doesn't make a diffrence on exhaust temp"

so perhapse having a turbo on the end of your header and nothing attached to it and no tuning done to your car would not create higher exhaust temperatures. but since a turbo changes air fuel ratio and usually spark as well when you tune it correctly wouldn't having a turbo hooked up to your car and actually doing what it's supposed to do cause a change in exhaust temperature? I suppose a supercharger would do the same thing so it wouldn't be limited to turbos.

btw has anyone ever heard of those turbos you can mount to your tailpipe? I saw them put on on a camaro instead of going right on the end of the header it goes closer to where the muffler is and then pipes inlet air ducts up to the front it also acts as a muffler and completely replaces it so you don't need one anymore. don't remember who made them, but wonder if this method would be easier in making a custom turbo setup since you don't need turbo headers and you don't really need to figure out how to fit it all under the hood since it'll be sitting where the muffler is. The only difficulty I see is running the air inlet pipe back up to the engine.
Joined: 5 Years ago · From: amherst, ma

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953427891 5 Years ago  

for most turbo kits they keep the a/f ratio pretty rich so the temp shouldn't change much but on higher hp applications when your trying to squeeze the last drop of power out they will lean the a/f ratio out a lil more so the exhaust gets hotter so that it flows better (hot air is less dense)


as for the turbo some place other then the header yes i have seen them (my friend is getting one for his camaro ss) they don't go all the way back to the exhaust but they will mount them down usally right before where the cats are cause the engine compartments are so tight it makes it hard to mount a single turbo in a "normal location" cause all the pipeing that would have to be done to get headers to fit in there

the turbo pretty much goes where the downpipe would be on a normal turbo car

This post has been edited by drkramm: 5 Years ago
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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mukalicious


 Post # 1953428074 5 Years ago  

like this?

[imagestation.com]
Joined: 7 Years ago · From: tampa/valrico, florida

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GTS_Rosh


2004 Thunder Cloud Silver Celica GT-S Tsunami
 Post # 1953428140 5 Years ago  

For 4-cylinder cars you have to have some form of backpressure from the exhaust to make torque. Torque is what will get you moving from a stop. Getting rid of mufflers and going big pipes, will always result in net HP gains, but you'll lose the all valuable torque. For a streetable car, you need both HP & Torque, so its very important that you build something that give you a good balance of both.
Joined: 5 Years ago · From: Vancouver, B.C. CANADA

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Lucky_317
Mike

2000 Silver Celica GT-S 6spd
 Post # 1953428223 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by GTS_Rosh:
For 4-cylinder cars you have to have some form of backpressure from the exhaust to make torque. Torque is what will get you moving from a stop. Getting rid of mufflers and going big pipes, will always result in net HP gains, but you'll lose the all valuable torque. For a streetable car, you need both HP & Torque, so its very important that you build something that give you a good balance of both.


with the celica this isnt exactly true. I run no muffler at all and I gained hp and torque. I actually put down more torque then just about anyone else N/A. right now I'm at 136wtq and thats including people with the same mods and more mods.
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: Fontana, CA

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spaztikid
timmy

00 Carbon Blue Celica GT
 Post # 1953428231 5 Years ago  

turbo exhaust is hotter... especially if you've been driving hard....

go look at EGT from a turbo car and an NA car...
Joined: 7 Years ago

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Speed4TheNeed
Caleb

2000 Carbon Blue Celica GT-S 6-spd
 Post # 1953428361 5 Years ago  

^^ it was my understanding that turbo exhaust is hotter as well. don't feel like arguing it because i dont know the specifics of it...thats just the way i learned it.
Joined: 7 Years ago · From: New Orleans, LA

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953428396 5 Years ago  

yes turbo exhausts are hotter but its becuase of the tuning of them find a dybo shet that shows the a/f ratio along with the egt and you will see that when the ratio leans the egt will raise

thats why they have a egt usally cause its a good sign that something is going wrong in the fuel system
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953428403 5 Years ago  

taken from www.overboost.com
"A lot of the time, you'll hear someone talking about how much hotter the exhaust system on a turbo car gets than a naturally aspirated car. Well, if you are catching my drift so far, you'll know that this is a bunch of BS. The temperature of exhaust gas is controlled by air/fuel mixture, spark, and cam timing. Not the turbo hanging off the exhaust manifold.

When designing an exhaust system, turbocharged engines follow the same rules as naturally aspirated engines. About the only difference is that the turbo engine will require quite a bit less silencing. "
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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Speed4TheNeed
Caleb

2000 Carbon Blue Celica GT-S 6-spd
 Post # 1953428501 5 Years ago  

^^ well really, but the thing is...when you force a lot mor air into a previously n/a car with a turbo and obviously get fuel management to force more fuel into the increased air supply..the result is more burning.

kind of hard to have a turbo system that doesnt do that. no one's saying "it's only the turbo that makes all the heat"..its the result of having a properly working turbo
Joined: 7 Years ago · From: New Orleans, LA

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953428565 5 Years ago  

i could go out side now tune the pfc to run extreme lean and get higher egt temps then msot street turbos and the raito is still the same doesn't matter if its stock na with one pound of air and one pound of gas or a 2 bar turbo with 30 pounds of air and 30 pounds of gas
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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GTS_Rosh


2004 Thunder Cloud Silver Celica GT-S Tsunami
 Post # 1953428850 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by Lucky_317:
with the celica this isnt exactly true. I run no muffler at all and I gained hp and torque. I actually put down more torque then just about anyone else N/A. right now I'm at 136wtq and thats including people with the same mods and more mods.


I hear what your saying, but what about this... isn't the power band then totally different? If you dyno'd your car with no exhaust, compared to a bone stock car, don't you have a huge dip in torque from idle to like say 4500rpm? But then maybe you get more peak torque and/or stronger band after 4500rpm? So then for a streetable daily driver, your car would be a total slouch in city traffic? That is why I think you need to have a respectable/usable power band for a daily driver/streetable car. Race cars, don't really care about low-end, so that's why they run with open exhausts, as they want maximum power/torque at the high rpms. So then choosing the right exhaust, does become a factor right?Because some people don't want to lose all there low-end completely. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

This post has been edited by GTS_Rosh: 5 Years ago
Joined: 5 Years ago · From: Vancouver, B.C. CANADA

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celicadragon
doug

2002 absolutely red celica gt-s
 Post # 1953429087 5 Years ago  

i wont mind since i want my car to be a 1/4 mile car then in high rpms it will be a beast
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

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celicatuner


2002 silver celica gt-s
 Post # 1953430274 5 Years ago  

is having a straight pipe better than just taking off your muffler assembly at the axle? Figure if you want to have a daily driver and go to the track once in a while you can just unbolt the muffler at the track.




PS You can't have HP without torque since horsepower is a mathematlical product of torque. torque * RPM/5300 = HP.
Joined: 5 Years ago · From: amherst, ma

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953430321 5 Years ago  

i unbolt at the axel and it works for me jsut don't idel too long with out moving fumes ge to be a pain


and its LOUD
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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hybridcelica


2000 silver/blue celica gts
 Post # 1953434784 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by drkramm:
since im really strarting to get sick of all these damn exhaust threads asking the same thing and getting the same anwesers that in most case's are wrong i figured i would make this

1 back pressure is bs most stock exhaust sytems don't even have 1 psi of pressure in them

2 if you would like to go for a dual exhaust go for it the only way it will hurt preformance is weight and if you made it a dual exhaust from the header back (2 cats 2 pipes all the way back) and only reason that hurts preformance is becuase heat

3 "a 2.5 inch exhaust is bad and can hurt the engine" WRONG you could go to a damn 5 inch exhaust but there wil be a preformance decrease casue the exhaust gas's flow better when there hot (cold air is mroe dense) on na 2.5 inch is prefectly fine


4 "mufflers make hp" wrong mufflers don't "make" hp for pure gains the best muffler is no muffler

5 "turbo exhaust is hotter" wrong again exhaust temp is raised lowered by timing air/fuel ratio and spark the turbo hanging off the header doesn't make a diffrence on exhaust temp


would be nice if someone sticked this cause if i see one more person blab about back pressure im gonna snap


i'm getting to old for this, but ignorance is contagious!
1) back preasure is is really bs delta preasure or delta flow is everything
specify which one you are refering to dude. the more back preasure you have the less hp you make you can go to a bigger exhaust to lose the back preasure but too big messes with delta flow.

2)dual exhaust is not only heavy but because the crosssectional area of the two pipes combined gives a bigger overal pipe diameter it also messes with delta flow/preasure hurts performance. you can through that 5" exhaust out the door.!
and heat in the exhaust hurts performance?i wonder why i spent a whole lot of money buying 1/8th by 2.5" wide exhaust wrap to wrap my headers and kazuma? its to retain the heat in the exhaust we go back to delta flow/preasure
(i think you should look up delta preasure/flow)
3)you said it right down here, exhaust gases do flow better when they are hot. the 5" pipe would allow the gases to expand to quickly thus reducing delta flow.

4)mufflers do make hp and torque. it depends on the rpm band if the gases are allowed to exit into the atmosphere too quickly the scavenging effect is reduced. remember some vehicles are exceptions egs turbo charged vehicles cause the exhaust comes after the turbo.
5)i wonder if you ever seen the manifold or a turbo charger itself glow red hot! do you have a egt? well, i used to be into drag racing big time and egts were standard cause sometimes the exhaust would be soo loud if the motor detonated you would not hear it.but! you can see the egt sky rocket and as you back off to save the motor you would see it drop back. having seen countless egt( while sitting in the drivers seat dude) i can tell you that forced induction esp turbo charged vehicles run a much higher exuast temp. esp when its being milked for every drop of hp!

tell me what you think is the normal temp range for 95 rx7 twin turbo stock booost and a 95 supra stock boost. you would be surprised at the diffrence and they are both turbocharged. take the manifolds from a na car and put them on a rx7 and they would melt or crack in no time.
any way dont fuss,do some more research on exhausts.
later.
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: virgin islands

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drkramm
derek

 Post # 1953435434 5 Years ago  

Quote:
Originally posted by hybridcelica:

i'm getting to old for this, but ignorance is contagious!
1) back preasure is is really bs delta preasure or delta flow is everything
specify which one you are refering to dude. the more back preasure you have the less hp you make you can go to a bigger exhaust to lose the back preasure but too big messes with delta flow.

98% of the delta flow is formed at the header thats why we hace preformacce headeres and whys theres such a diffrence in power compared to 4 to 1 and 4 2 1
Quote:
Originally posted by hybridcelica:
2)dual exhaust is not only heavy but because the crosssectional area of the two pipes combined gives a bigger overal pipe diameter it also messes with delta flow/preasure hurts performance. you can through that 5" exhaust out the door.!

axel back duel does not weigh more i jsut weighd the pipe if you read the other post its lighter and as i said before 98% of delta is thorugh headers
Quote:
Originally posted by hybridcelica:

and heat in the exhaust hurts performance?i wonder why i spent a whole lot of money buying 1/8th by 2.5" wide exhaust wrap to wrap my headers and kazuma? its to retain the heat in the exhaust we go back to delta flow/preasure
(i think you should look up delta preasure/flow)
i think you should go back and read my post and see that i said heat is nesscary for flow because dense air is harder to move

Quote:
Originally posted by hybridcelica:

3)you said it right down here, exhaust gases do flow better when they are hot. the 5" pipe would allow the gases to expand to quickly thus reducing delta flow.

so far half of your post is useless cause you didn't read
Quote:
Originally posted by hybridcelica:

4)mufflers do make hp and torque. it depends on the rpm band if the gases are allowed to exit into the atmosphere too quickly the scavenging effect is reduced. remember some vehicles are exceptions egs turbo charged vehicles cause the exhaust comes after the turbo.

thats not the exhaust making power it doesnt make power it will give you a lil more power due to flow but it doesn't make power like f/i would

Quote:
Originally posted by hybridcelica:

5)i wonder if you ever seen the manifold or a turbo charger itself glow red hot! do you have a egt? well, i used to be into drag racing big time and egts were standard cause sometimes the exhaust would be soo loud if the motor detonated you would not hear it.but! you can see the egt sky rocket and as you back off to save the motor you would see it drop back. having seen countless egt( while sitting in the drivers seat dude) i can tell you that forced induction esp turbo charged vehicles run a much higher exuast temp. esp when its being milked for every drop of hp!

yes i have seen them glow i have also seen n/a headers glow my bike headers will glow if i run it hard cause it was jetted lean and you say in there how you milk every last drop out read some of my posts i say in this it specifcaly says "for most turbo kits they keep the a/f ratio pretty rich so the temp shouldn't change much but on higher hp applications when your trying to squeeze the last drop of power out they will lean the a/f ratio out a lil more so the exhaust gets hotter so that it flows better (hot air is less dense)"
and what happens on a open atmospere bov when you let off the gas ? the maf still thinks theres 20 pounds of boost coming in so it runs really rich would prove my point again

Quote:
Originally posted by hybridcelica:
tell me what you think is the normal temp range for 95 rx7 twin turbo stock booost and a 95 supra stock boost. you would be surprised at the diffrence and they are both turbocharged. take the manifolds from a na car and put them on a rx7 and they would melt or crack in no time.
any way dont fuss,do some more research on exhausts.
later.


maybe you should do some research and learn how to read the replys in a post casue 4 of 5 questions were already anwnsered
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: pa

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AdamVIP


 Post # 1953438370 5 Years ago  

You know as far as dual exhausts hurting performance so do 18" wheels but people like the look. Im all for some dual exhaust setups cause i like the way they look.
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: CA

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VSGTS14
Billy

 Post # 1953438720 5 Years ago  

except dual exhausts on a car that doesn't NEED it or has no BENEFIT from it is very pointless
doesn't look great at all.

good thread, people do need to learn about exhaust setups.
next we need a thread all about the available exhausts on the market that are good, as well as intakes
cause there is a thread bout them everyday. then the thread would have reviews in it only.
Joined: 8 Years ago · From: Milford, NJ

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hybridcelica


2000 silver/blue celica gts
 Post # 1953440038 5 Years ago  

thats not the exhaust making power it doesnt make power it will give you a lil more power due to flow but it doesn't make power like f/i would


i think you are missing the point of my comments: its very important when you make statements about performance that you be as specific as possible.

a lot of guys on these sites dont have a lot of track experience esp. when it comes to the performance and tuning of motors.

you said that an exhaust dont make power i can say that a turbo charger dont make power either! it doesnt matter the amt of air that you have if it doesnt have the FUEL no more power will be made as far as combustion is concerned.

you said you have a bike, i used to race bikes as well (another life ago)and i know the importance and performance advantages of a good exhaust on bikes. all i'm saying if you are giving advice try to be more factually specific because the recipien of such might take it, "set it in stone and run with it"
peace
Joined: 6 Years ago · From: virgin islands

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